Macedonia Issues Greece Travel Warning

Good... stay away. Interestingly they also wanted to open up another border to Greece saying that was good for their country. The confused country circus continues...

Excellent idea. Better yet close the border, that way you FRYOMIANS can stay on your side of the fence.

talking about confusion 24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM’s Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country." THERE IS SOME CONFUSION ABOUT THE IDENTITY OF THIS COUNTRY??????????

Better yet, let's close the borders completely if that's what Milososki wants. Wait, wasn't that what the embargo was about?

last week Milososkov wrote a letter asking for another border crossing, now he's urging (affluent) Macedonoid tourists against coming to Greece, all 20 of them...

Please stay with the facts. Greece did not have to use its veto. FYROM never met the essential conditions for admittance. If I recall correctly, there were many countries including Spain, Italy, France etc. who sided with Greece on this issue. Therefore, your statement "Last April Greece blocked Macedonia’s sure entry into NATO" is false!

The US Travel Warning should not be disputed, and it says: "When there are demonstrations, visitors should be aware of and avoid places where demonstrators frequently congregate, such as the Polytechnic University area, Exarchia, Omonia, and Syntagma Squares in Athens, and Aristotle Square in Thessaloniki. The Omonia and Exharchia areas of Athens are at particular risk for crime and politically-motivated violence; U.S. Embassy personnel and their families have been urged strongly to avoid these areas between 9 pm and dawn."

Even the President of FYROM said that NATO blocked their entry not Greece as that official statement came from NATO. Greece invoked its veto right but officially NATO veto'd their entry. FYROM is about to learn a lesson in the rule of law - besides, they know this are are only buying time. When you think about this strategy what other choice do they have, negotiate or buy time and lose the trial which isn't legally binding anyway. To avoid negotiating they are buying time. Gruev really isn't a fool but desperate and with 30%+ unemployment soon if not already there will be more desperate people in that country.

>Better yet close the border The last time Greece did that, within days the port of Thessaloniki ground to standstill and many jobs were threatened. We're all part of Europe - we depend on each other and closing borders only harms the income of ordinary people.

"We're all part of Europe - we depend on each other and closing borders only harms the income of ordinary people" True. But if that's their government's will, there is not much one can do about it.

Allos - NATO membership is (or should be) on completion of what is known as an MAP (Membership Action Plan). The Bucharest Summit concluded that Macedonia had met the terms of its MAP, but still needed to sort the name issue out. The name issue is not a part of a MAP as it is a bilateral issue (indeed, many NATO members use the term RoM. You list Italy which uses both RoM and FYROM). It is also worth noting that the Interim Agreement also allows specifically for the RoM to join organisations under the provisional designation. I will leave the legality of this to the courts - I am not a lawyer. Morally however Greek actions here have been reprehensible. Leaving aside that NATO should be above bilateral issues, Greece has put its petty interests above alliance security. Unless you want to tell me how the name RoM is a security threat to anything other than the smug sense of superiority that Greeks like to flaunt, as on this very board? Still, we can always comfort ourselves about how good a NATO member Greece is and how it would never give NATO secrets to, say the Serbs under Milosevic....oh, hang on a moment. Incidentally, allos - you obviously love Greece - where do you live again?

How can you deny that Greece vetoed Macedonia's entry into NATO last year?? Can you read properly? Any news article that you read is evidence that this statement is true. Macedonia has met all the conditions for admittance, they have even exceeded the conditions. This was made clear by the U.S. government and officials who worked hard to settle this petty dispute.

What I cannot fathom is how Greece has made it to the European union?! With their policies, it is clear that they go well beyond the nationalism of the criminal governments, namely Milosevic. I mean, when Macedonia makes a lot of mistakes, I understand: they are inexperienced. Until yesterday they had identity troubles: today they learned who Alexander the Great is, and they are seeking to name everything and anything after him. They shake on their boots because they want badly to belong. But Greece?! My goodness!!! My father remembers when they used to go to Greece in the 60's and it was nothing but a big primitive village with close to zero infrastructure. And thanks to the Americans they improved. And today they belong to the most prestigious institutions in the world, but yet they remain primitive....

Greece makes a loss from FYROMIANS visiting and taking away accommodation from western europeans. I say good riddance. There are 16 million other people with more money, willing to visit Greece.

Regarding your answer to Allos...can YOU read properly?! He does not deny it at all. Read again and you will find out what other countrys veto:ed FYROM:s entrance into NATO.

The fact is that there was no veto. Greece was not alone in Bucharest. Dara, remind me how exactly would NATO interests be harmed if FYROM had agreed to join with a sane name like "Northern Macedonia" for example. I note that during the Falklands war, the french for example cooperated with the british on the missiles they had sold to Argentina. They did not claim "it was a bilateral issue". When one wants to join a club, an obvious minimum requirement is to respect its existing members; that's what organizations do, they stand up for their members. Gruevski's position (after making a mockery of the IA both in spirit and in letter) was "The great G.W.Bush will force Greece to yield". FYROM's position has been insult after insult. And Leek, what policies do you refer to?

Yes we know all too weel about the US and its policies. So spares us...we know all too well about the racism and poverty that exists in the US. You can keep it thanks for the offer anyway.

Jim - Thank you for your reply. Taking your points in turn. 'Greece was not alone in Bucharest. Dara, remind me how exactly would NATO interests be harmed if FYROM had agreed to join with a sane name like "Northern Macedonia" for example.' I do not claim that Greece was alone, nor do I claim that NATO interests would be harmed by any particular combination name. 'during the Falklands war, the french for example cooperated with the british on the missiles they had sold to Argentina. They did not claim "it was a bilateral issue"' The Falklands was not a NATO conflict, so I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. If you think that the French should have been uncooperative, you need to take it up with their government. In any case, isn't it interesting that Britain doesn't throw a Greek style hissy fit when counties refer to 'Las Malvinas.' 'When one wants to join a club, an obvious minimum requirement is to respect its existing members; that's what organizations do, they stand up for their members.' Well, throughout the 1990s, Greece showed how its membership of the Glorious Orthodox Brotherhood meant more than NATO or the EU, but leave that to one side. The Macedonian Constitution specifically says that the RoM makes no territorial claim. End of. One country does not get to name another - unless you want to explain to me why Greece is a special case. Many NATO and EU countries refer to RoM. As do many members of the Glorious Orthodox Brotherhood. I recognise, of course, that you do not claim that Greece over the past 20 years has been perfect - but looking back at that time the aggressive Helleno-jingoism has, by any objective measure (that is, not your subjectivity) been a bigger threat to NATO and the EU than anything from VMRO. Whether there was a veto or not, I don't know - as I said in my first comment, I leave that to those with expertise. But the IA is very clear on this point. Are there any other agreements that the Greek government will just ignore? Presumably, the Greeks would have no issue if other countries just ignored the EU treaty? And as to insult after insult, the Greek Culture Ministry's comments on the Elgin Marbles make for interesting reading. I can think of only one example where an 'independent country' has 'voluntarily' decided that 'Republic' is an insufficient identifier. Prize Jim if you can tell me which 'country' I have in mind.

Still, we can always comfort ourselves about how good a NATO member Greece is and how it would never give NATO secrets to, say the Serbs under Milosevic....oh, hang on a moment. Dara The Greeks took a leaf from Philby,Burgess,Blunt and Maclean while betraying NATO secrets to the Soviets.No wonder the CIA never trusted the british.

There are 2.500.000 Macedonians inside Greek nation and some hundreds of thousands of Bulgarian Macedonians. For all of them the term "Macedonian" is not a simple regional qualifier as some posters of the Slav Macedonian side often claim. What we need here is a political compromise and not a strict legalistic approach that RoM consists a composite name.

I can think of only one example where an 'independent country' has 'voluntarily' decided that 'Republic' is an insufficient identifier. Prize Jim if you can tell me which 'country' I have in mind. Dara The UK

"I do not claim that Greece was alone, nor do I claim that NATO interests would be harmed by any particular combination name." Good, so we agree that not becoming a NATO member was a choice made by RoM "The Falklands was not a NATO conflict, so I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. If you think that the French should have been uncooperative, you need to take it up with their government." On the contrary, the french behavior is an example of how allies should behave: The french let their financial and other interests take a back seat to supporting an ally. You may want to compare this with british behavior, such as working out the Ankara agreement with the US and Turkey whose purpose was to limit the scope of the European army! Why two countries outside Europe, including one which occupies EU soil should have a say in EU affairs can only be explained if you subscribe to the view that the UK is a fifth column inside the EU. De Gaulle used much stronger words to say the same thing. "In any case, isn't it interesting that Britain doesn't throw a Greek style hissy fit when counties refer to 'Las Malvinas.'" Let me remind you that NO UK ally is referring to 'Las Malvinas'. In contrast to exempary greek allies, like the UK. "Well, throughout the 1990s, Greece showed how its membership of the Glorious Orthodox Brotherhood meant more than NATO or the EU, but leave that to one side." where do you get this orthodox brotherhood nonsense? During the Yugoslav crisis greek basketball fans cheered for the croatians and against the yugoslav team because they perceived the the yugoslav team was being favored by the refs. Notwithstanding that Greece repeatedly tried to help end the wars. The only thing which is true is that greeks, having lived under both islamic rule and fascist regimes understand very well someone born (serb) yugoslav and not wanting to live in a country whose president advocates Saria law or whose president says "thank god, my wife is neither serb, nor jewish". " the aggressive Helleno-jingoism has, by any objective measure (that is, not your subjectivity) been a bigger threat to NATO and the EU than anything from VMRO." I have no idea how greek "jingoism" threatens the EU or NATO. I can not say the same about the UK though. "Whether there was a veto or not, I don't know - as I said in my first comment, I leave that to those with expertise. But the IA is very clear on this point. Are there any other agreements that the Greek government will just ignore? Presumably, the Greeks would have no issue if other countries just ignored the EU treaty?" There was no veto, just look at the press releases. And Greece has been honoring its agreements much more than the UK(unless you do not see a problem between the Helsinki 74 act and Kossovo's recognition) I agree that the greek culture ministry has made more of a fuss about elgin's marbles(not that the marbles do not belong to greece though); The UK is very strict about rule of law when it suits their interests and very lax when it does not. In Greece(and any other civilized country) it would be unthnkable for the PM's wife to defend people who have knowingly bought property that is theproduct of armed robbery with murded(the Oram case). So it looks like you should first take a good hard look home before you use these expressions for other countries

I was born in Australia, parents are European and because of my last name I cant travel to Greece (which is a beautiful country) because of this stupid Macedonian thing. It's ridiculous!!!! im not even born in Macedonia. this feud is childish.