Macedonian Identity "To Be Defined"

Of course, did you expect otherwise? Macedonia is a geographic region within Greece, FYROM and Bulgaria. People from these areas all call themselves Macedonian. This does not mean that because FYROM chooses to name their country Macedonia that they are exclusively the only Macedonians. If tht were the case, Greek Macedonians outnumber all other Bulgarian and FYROMian Macedonians combined. If my people choose to call themselves Spanish because I am living on what once was Spanish land, his does not mean I am the only Spaniard in the world and only I can be called this. This is the problem. FYROM is stealing a name that clearly belongs to Greece, but they are trying to use it exclusively. Saying that your land is Macedonian is one thing, but claiming the identity because your land stands on it is a total other. Macedonians were, are and will always be Greek. History proves this and cannot be changed. propoganda only works online, but in libraries around the world, the truth lives and no reference to Makedonski, only Makedonia in Greek, speakign Greek and being Greek. Politically speaking, so long as Greece keeps saying no and vetoing, pressure cannot overcome a veto. You will NEVER be excluively called Macedonian as this issue will hang forever with this propoganda and irredentism. Macedonian, therefore Greek.

Talks ground to a halt because FYROM sued Greece and the International Court will not take up the case for some time.

"Athens blocked Skopje last April from NATO entry, objecting that only the Greek northern province has the right to call itself Macedonia" No balkan insight, it is totally untrue. The main point of the Greek objection is that there are 2.500.000 Macedonians in Greece that are not represented by the so-called "Macedonian" government. A qualifier in front of the word Macedonia is needed to clarify the situation. The rest who is who,who was really Alexander the Macedonian,Kleopatra etc are part of historians' responsibility.

I am a Macedonian, however I am in no way identified with or related to the newly formed independent state referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” ; I am instead insulted by the fact that I cannot be known as a Macedonian without being identified by others as related to FYROM.

Well too bad for you for being such a narrow minded nationalist!

The common respect of the individual rights and as well of self-determination of nations was the most valuable achievements of the humanity in recent history. We almost started to believe that slavery and discrimination become bad shadows of the past. Unfortunately, one small country uses its position of power to ruin positions of another small nation on it’s way to integration with common civilized values! We respect that Greeks are proud to their history. But, to live like ancient Greeks they need slaves! Macedonians will never become that, we are proud nation as well! The most tragic situation is that some EU politicians support, or in a softer form don’t oppose this. This is not the way to treat small nations! Finally, all European nations are not big enough to avoid malicious steps from biggest nations if this way of suppression and discrimination become common practice. Be aware of that fact! Regards to all with good intentions!

the rump of former yugoslavia's southern badlands... "to be defined"

Anyone remembers that islands tend to play more important roles than calm seas? Cuba in the 60's of the last century for example? Good morning everyone! Hello Brussels! Macedonia calling. Macedonia decides now! It's now longer just a yummy salad! And...this time it's not 1913...So not 1913! As for Greece...God forgive them...For they know not what they have done to themselves! Regards with a big smile! From...You bet - Republic of Macedonia!

Oh dear, 2 million slavs looking for an identity

Greek officials coupled with the Macedono-hating blogger hysteria remind me of the sad Ceausescus standing at that balcony over the "Revolution Square" in Bucharest Romania on December 21, 1989...They addressed the enchanted and adoring masses. They were waving and ranting for hours. Hardly that knew it would be their ultimate farewell message. We all remember what happened hours later thanks to their own policies one of the most dramatic Christmas Days 20 years ago. It wasn't an "outside conspirator" but those same masses who denied them and tragically rejected them! Euro bureaucrats' officials on the other hand have outperformed Ms. Monica Lewinski and her undeniable skills and talent. Many are still burried under their office desks. Busy pleasuring their big boss Greece with their every day jobs in fear of being fired or not approved of if they don't do a good and thorough enough job of pleasing them to a point of orgasm. Faking pleasure and joy on their faces they keep "goin' on it", despite the obvious bad odour in this devoted activity leaves in their mouths! But alas, they won't admit it! They fear for their comfy leather chairs. They expect promotion or else...

I find it funny that this argument is often used to justify the taking of an identity that has clearly been proven to be Greek and despite the fact that the majority of the ancient land is STILL Greek.... I wander what McDonalds would say if I excercised the right to self determine my business as McDonalds, golden arches and all? How much less is a nations historical identity? re: the God forgive them dramatics it fools no one Regards from Macedonia. Forever Greek

Just a few questions: 1.Which came firt Greek or Cyrillic characters?? We all know that!!! 2. What language was spoken by Alexandros & his father Phillipos?? 3.What country has Vergina always been in?? 4.Therefore to which country is the 16 point star of Vergina associated with?? 5. How many centuries after the death of Alexandros did the slavic Macedonians arrive on the scene?? 6. So who's identity is who trying to steal????? "Macedonia - a counterfeit nation" Eddie, not Greek nor pseudo-Macedonian, but a citizen of the Balkans.

keep the "republic", the land known as Macedonia was and is in Greece

Nobody objects when a Greek person, feels as Macedonian and proclaim him self as such. But then, nobody else but Greek by belief, have the right to feel Macedonian too, because the Greeks will be offended. They are the only ones that are Greeks and Macedonians in a same time and have exclusively right to feel like that. C'mon, can you see how crazy this is.IT IS MY HUMAN RIGHT TO FEEL AS I WANT. And guess what, I feel Macedonian, and nobody can take this away from me. So my fellow Greek citizens, this is just the beginning where the law of nature wins. The only way you can be winners over this issue, is to make the rest of the world that feels as Macedonian, DISAPPEAR.

If Akritas are a narrow minded nationalist what does that make you?...a open minded nationalist?

Nobody objects when a Greek person, feels as Macedonian and proclaim him self as such. But then, nobody else but Greek by belief, have the right to feel Macedonian too, because the Greeks will be offended. They are the only ones that are Greeks and Macedonians in a same time and have exclusively right to feel like that. C'mon, can you see how crazy this is.IT IS MY HUMAN RIGHT TO FEEL AS I WANT. And guess what, I feel Macedonian, and nobody can take this away from me. So my fellow Greek citizens, this is just the beginning where the law of nature wins. The only way you can be winners over this issue, is to make the rest of the world that feels as Macedonian, DISAPPEAR.

It is unbelievable how some greeks think they have the right to dictate someone else's identity. I guess the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not known in the Former Ottoman Province of Greece, the last bastion of clero-fascism. Veto all you want - you have already lost - for the more you bicker about this issue - the more you will educate the civilized world that there is a country called Macedonia that doesn't allow to be bullied.

Maybe Bulgarian!

The temporary reference "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is in use, this is excerption from EC style guide: 21.5 South-East Europe (Western Balkans). In the context of EU external relations the two terms are used interchangeably to refer collectively to Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and Serbia and Montenegro. Yunanistan goverment missed this one!

Macedonia needs to end the negotiations with Greece over its name at once and cease all activities with nations, blocks of nations like the EU, and other organizations (NATO), that show disrespect if not downright hostility to Macedonia and Macedonians because of who they are. This is an ultimatum from Greece, the EU and NATO for Macedonia to change its name and Macedonians to change their identity or else. Ultimatums are normally the tools of terrorists and those who through force and bullying try to achieve their objectives which they can't achieve through civilized discourse. Then Macedonia needs to stop squandering its energies with EU and NATO and only work with those nations who have already recognized them as Macedonia and Macedonians. That is more then 2/3 of the world already, more then sufficient for trade and normal intergovernmental activities. As Macedonians we need to thank Greece for keeping us out of NATO and the EU a union that is shaping to be endlessly more horrifying then the former Soviet Union.

...non Greek people monopolizing the name of Macedonia because Macedonians have always been Greeks

@Eddie The Broadminded – Greek and Cyrillic letters have nothing to do with territorial pretentions. On the other hand, your post has too much to do with misinterpreting history. - Phillip and Alexander, as well as the ancient Greeks have very little to do with nowadays population of Greece. Or you’ve forgotten how, in the Dark Ages, that population called itself Roman? - Death of Alexander and migration of Slavic tribes mark just one of the many migrations of the peoples on the Balkans. With the same success Celts could claim ownership of Delphi. - About the identity – when you visit modern Macedonia, do you understand their talk and language? No? That’s may be because it is a Bulgarian dialect, not a Greek one. I can only agree with you that there is nothing such as “Macedonian” nation but these people want own identity and own sovereignty the same way Greeks, Bulgarian and Romanian wanted it in 19th century. I believe in the 21st century it should be possible. Let’s leave the ancient ruler to rest in peace.

You call yourselfs Macedonian. Did we the 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece give you that right. Are you speaking for us now, becasue i now feel i lost my identity and i do not even speak a word of your Slavic language. So spare us.

sorry i meant to say narrow minded & a nationalist!

The Athenian from the ancient times did everything they could to stop the barbarian, retrograde Macedonian because it was a monarchy and not a republic. Macedonian were paysans for most of them but led by some inspirational leaders that made great things beyond expectation, and that's history. More than 2000 years after the events Greek are claiming to be the sole, exclusive Macedonian in earth. Granting no right to anyone naming themselves Macedonian. The issue in my understanding is the modern Greece, where live great people, don't misundertatnd me, but they are not politician try to stick to this identity because its the only think left for them. Greece is beautiful, touristic but they have no leadership which could keep them proud about who they are today, therefore Greek politicians are keeping its people focused to something outside their country, like Macedonian and so colled Macedonian name issue. It is always easier to make critics about your neighbours instead looking at your own internal issues. We Macedonian do not consider being the sole Macedonian and we understand they is Macedonian in Nothern Greece and Bulgaria and also in many countries worldwide. We Macedonian are supporting Human Rights and Modern Civilization We Macedonian Want to live in a better world for all of us not just Macedonians and watch our childrens live happy and in peace. We Macedonian deserve the right to call ourselves Macedonian is we want to, eaven if this makes our dear Greeks unhappy because it is a common right. What I see in Greeks now it is Nationalist Chauvinism and jalous people laking of identity frustrated not being strong as they were more than 2000 years ago. And I understand it could be very heavy heritage but don't blame the others blame yourself not being capable to achieve great things.

All too easily FYROM citizens use the word fascism as it was used behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War: to demonise anything opposing the state. Greece by being part of the EU shares the sames values. Greece does not want anything from FYROM other than to respect the history, culture and identity of its neighbours. The VMRO has in reality many of the characteristics of a fascist regime, not only in terms of conforming to historic political archetypes but also possessing peculiarities which, nevertheless, are perfectly explained with Fascism’s most ubiquitous feature: forced sacrifice of oneself to the altar of the State via reform imposed by the state leadership. Some formulaic and not so formulaic hallmarks of VMRO regime in FYROM: 1. Declared usage of a conservative model designed to impose complacency and to provide a social fabric based on units larger than the individual. 2. Historicism, not only reminiscent to the types present in historical regimes of modern times, but of a more bizarre, eclectic, pompous type. 3. Effective modernization, sustained program of upgrading of the police and security agencies. Spectacular overkill arrests of non-violent alleged criminals. 4. Grip on journalism through pressure, draconian laws and integration of the loyalist media. An extensive program of TV and magazine budget-payed advertising of the “successes” of the government. 5. Enforcement of a 1996 totalitarian law that forbids private research and foundation of private institutes and projects studying the identity cultures of peoples living within FYROM. 6. Politicization of groups of virile, ultra-nationalist young men (reserve troops, sport hooligans, Hunza-clad "Macedonians"). 7. Nationalist public primary education, obligatory in essence.

Dear ABG, it is a fact that during Dark Ages Ottomans called Greeks "Rums" from the word "Roman" because the empire of Byzantium was the eastern part of former Roman empire.But it would be wrong if we said that ancient Greeks have very little to do with nowadays population of Greece because the language is almost the same!No matter how the others call you, the basic point of your nationality is your language.. With respect..

Macedonians have never claimed exclusive rights to the terms Macedonia and Macedonian. That is something that Greece and Greeks do. It is entirely your business if you self identify as a Macedonian, Greek Macedonian or just Greek. Does it also occur to you that people also say to us "Oh you must be Greek". Still we don't mind and go about our business, so why can't you. In the end if you must rename something, start by renaming that which is under Greece's jurisdiction so that there will be no misunderstanding as to which Macedonia one is referring to.

Why did greece wait untill 1989 to change the name to Macedonia? Because it realized what was happening with the Republic of Macedonia and the land that was stolen from them in 1913. Sorry to say the greek citizens are the ones that fell for their government propoganda!!

Vardarska is the real name of FYROM(Before Tito change it)...take it or leave it. After that it will be East Albania-West Bulgaria.

It is a real disgrace that FYROM would try to steal Greece's Macedonian Identity despite not being Greek, not speaking Greek like Macedonians, not even holding the Geographic Macedonia either. What next? Croatia calling themselves the Republic of Bavaria?

No Greek wants to deny the Slav Macedonians their identity. Even ,though, in antiquity the land of Macedonia comprised what is primarily today Greek Macedonia , a case can be made that the Macedonians, a Greek tribe conquered the land called Paionia [where modern FYROM is located] and may have assimilated the local population. However, the Slavic tribes did not arrive into this area till approximately 1000 years later! Thus,despite their arguments that they mixed with the local people they still cannot claim a direct link to the ancient Macedonians. The main problem lies in the fact that their pseudo-historians want 'their cake and eat it too!' They are re-writing history thereby they are denying the fact that these ancient Macedonians were Greeks. In addition, despite modern genetics studies which are connecting the modern Greeks to the ancients and not the Slavo-Macedonians [see Wikipedia for plenty of examples], these Northern "scoundrels" are trying to deny our 2.5 million Greek Macedonians their identity by using derogatory terms as Christian Turks and subsaharan DNA people and they are making claims which miss the mark of the clearly undisputed historical truth re: the continuity of the Hellenic race. You see most of us Greeks are prepared to let them use the "Macedonian" term in a composite way so that we are not "robbed" of the name which is an integral part of our heritage. In a way, we are dealing with these people in a milder way than our ancestors would have dealt. Philip and Alexander if they were alive today, they would probably unite all Greeks and conquer your land within 48 hours. To top it all up, you would have to learn Greek and accept the Greek way of life and culture! Therefore, take it easy on us and play ball for we modern Greeks believe in diplomacy and would prefer to solve these issues peacefully and not by force. However, we can be "pushed" only so far, if you get my drift.

boys what are you trying to justify how greek macedonia is. it's unreal.... the truth, have you done research on the slavic theory? no because there is none you have greek (ally) historians trying to piece together this theory(mythology) but the truth is the macedonian language spread north up to Russia why? 2300 years ago Phillip and Alexanders vetran soldiers (the ones wounded in battle or the ones to old to fight) took their spoils and settled north of Macedonia and asia minor remember this was in 300bc and nearly 1000 years later 600ad a so called tribe came all the way south and stoped at greek borders come on.... you listen to a Russian or a Slovene and then listen to an Agean Macedonian not a Serbian influenced rep of Macedonia and you can tell the strong charicteristics of a Macedonian.... a thousand years is a long time. it was not an important issue on nation building (this all startd a couple of centuries ago) just servival. greece's name was created just like iran,iraq,cyprus,albania,bulgaria,turkey and so on even the olympics were created a hundred years ago (by the French).... its great to have a flexable history hey.... greeks are not consistant, their is to many variations that you tend to confuse youself. without Macedonian history the greeks are pretty boring, there would not be a so called golden age and the spread of the so called hellenism to the very western societies of asia minor (Turkey) persia (Iran) Afganistan, Pakistan, very democratic regions (yeah right) oh and Egypt, but the Egyptians bet you their golden age was 5000 years ago pyramids and all.....and to eddie if the tomb of Phillip was found before 1912 it would have been on Macedonian soil... how did the greeks count the romans have numerals you know xxv? does that make you any less greek! with a multitude of nations speak and use the english language does this make them english eg Turkey,croatia,malta,france,italy and so on. How can Macedonia be so distant to the greeks for so long ,(eg fought wars greeks siding with persia language barrier) and all of a sudden be so greek. you got the land and now you want the history... very brainwashed group of people. Alexander also spoke persian and wore persian clothes and even had a persian bride, what does that make him now persian... there is so much more that i can say but im only dealing with narrow minded people who have been conditioned to be racist to others which is totally against Alexanders III principals of unity between cultures. Macedonian people are like the true democratic sociaties like the west with a mixed nation like America and Australia. In eastern europe and the balkans that is hard to find.... i dont expect a bright responce. freedom to all

ian kant said" "Oh dear, 2 million slavs looking for an identity" ---------------------- they can have one... as far as they dont still my ID card. They have to find a brand new one. St. Paul said: "IT IS MY HUMAN RIGHT TO FEEL AS I WANT. And guess what, I feel Macedonian, and nobody can take this away from me." -------------------------------- No St Paul it is NOT your human right to feel like somebody else and present yourself as somebody else because at.. the same time you CANCEL the human right of the other person that has NO relation with you! Every person has a unique ID card.. and it is NOT you human right to have the exact one with this person! You have to have you brand new one of your own. Got it?! Is it my human right to start saying I'm Japanese and I represent Japan?? Thats a crime!!

You claim there are 2.5 million "Macedonian's" in greece! For people such as I that don't know,please enlighten us by providing some information; from where did these 2.5 million people come from? Amongst all those 2.5 million, are there any other nationalities at all? Surely you don't expect us to believe greece is 100% pure greek, do you? Is there such a thing as a "Population Sensis" in greece, where people can freely express their ethnicity? If there is, when was the last one held and where there any other nationalities registered and who are they? When you take in consideration that even larger countries such as Germany, England have large ethnic minorities, surely greece of today in the Balkans, must have some other nationalities? Last of all AKP, who are you guy's and why are you trying to negate the existence of an entire race of people? What are you so scared of, isn't NATO and the EU enough to protect you?

Antony D. Smith remarks that there are two main kinds of ethnic extinction in the full sense: genocide and ethnocide, which is sometimes - at times misleadingly — called «cultural genocide». In one sense genocide is a rare and probably modern phenomenon. It includes those cases where we know that mass death of a cultural group was premeditated and the basis of that targeting was exclusively the existence and membership of that cultural group The mainly objection(danger) for Greece does not emanate from the the continuing Slavmacedonian Historical Negoniatism/Revisionism , but from the combinations of forces that can result in the future. Importance does not only have the relative force of state, but the combinations of force where it can include itself and that can use in order to destabilize a neighboring country or a entire region. FYROM does not have the right to acquire, by international recognition, an advantage enjoyed by no other state in the world: to use a name which of itself propagandizes territorial aspirations. Greece has demonstrated its desire to reach a solution that will lead to the full normalization of bilateral relations, facilitate the course of its neighbor towards the Euro-Atlantic institutions, and consolidate stability and cooperation in Balkan region. Please next time consider the above facts before call me as narrow mind nationalist because i wat to protect my cultural identity from the political proffits of some that want to promote this un-historicla identity. At least EU focus and in the cultural identity of the Macedonian Greeks.

Do the spanish settlers in central-south America call themselves Inka or Azteca?

Don't blame the Greeks, blame the communists.

Who writes history MAN, how on earth back in ancient times can anyone be sure where exactly people were from, as there was no borders or what language they spoke..Im sure the greeks of today do not speak the same language as the so called greeks back in ancient times....Also the Macedonians do not speak the langauge of the ancient macedonians....It is a FACT in all history books that Alexander the Great had a Macedonian father and a Greek mother.When alexander took control of both armies he could not speak ancient greek but had someone from his army translate he spoke ancient macedonian.... Two different langauges...Hence 2 different people........ The only thing that is helping the greeks in this issue is having people in the right EU Departments....

St Paul you can call yourself whatever you want in your own country as long as you do not call yourself Macedonian on the international stage. You like to play the victim but you are really the agressor. Firstly St Paul only visited areas that are in GREEK MACEDONIA eg Kavala, Thessaloniki etc. Also the only languages spoken at the time were Greek and Latin. Yet you feel free to steal our history and then complain that we are infringing on you human rights.

these people dont want their own identity they want mine

LOL 2.5 million greeks who call themselves and call themselves macedonians! yes and how many are Prosifigi from asia minor... oops none! thats right there is an unbroken lineage from the Mycenaeans to the comtemporary greeks... give me a break!

To ABG: I am not misinterpreting history, just posing some questions that most writers to this current subject seem to conveniently forget!! Also I believe that the timimng of the arrival of the slavic tribes on the territory is very relevant, when their successors are trying to steal a history & culture belonging to those who pre-dated them. Of course people in this century are entitled to an identity, but theirs and not one stolen from others. Eddie.

Well said Boris but, do not expect any reason, fact or civility of yours to be even considered let alone accepted by our poor hellenic sheep. They are too far gone now, immersed in their governments propoganda, they see nothing but their modern greek mythology. When they began their lie in the early 20th century, it was a little one, "MACEDONIANS DON'T EXIST". Since then the lie has taken many twists and turns and has now grown/evolved into a situation where they are now Macedonians and we are not??? They are living their lie, which sadly for them, like all lies will and is unravelling. Gruevski knows this, this is why he is challenging your historians to sit with ours. Yes my poor sheep "ba ba" all you like, we know who and what we are. Long live Macedonia and thanks to us she does.

I'm a Czech journalist and I lived for year and a half in Greek Macedonia. I'm being literally fed up with the incorrect interpretations of history my Greek friends are using in their argument against their northern neighbours. I understand that they in a way "live in a dark" - in school and for their whole lives they were taught nonsenses about the continuity of antic history and not being told about the intercultural changes and ethnographical processes going on for centuries, not to mention the mere fact that in the times of Alexander the Great the ethonymum "Greek" was used as a culturological category, not in a MODERN nationalist sense... Anyway, I'd like to point out that the current Macedonian issue is nobody else's but the Greeks fault. When majority of Macedonia was incorporated into Greece in 1913, a huge Slavic minority lived there. Go to the mountains and see the icons in the churches by yourselves. The cyrillic letters are scraped off and the names of saints are rewritten in alphabeta. I saw them and the local priest don't deny it. Those were bad times, they say. Exactly. It is a history now. But let's try to understand it: If the Greek state wouldn't be pursuing a discriminative policy against its Slavic minority (who was living for centuries in Macedonia, therefore the people called themselves Macedonians, too), those people might be nowadays proud and happy citizens of the Hellenic Republic. However, the Greek state systematically persecuted them, forced them to leave or to abandon their language and alienated them for good. Nevertheless, erasing the traces of Slavic presence in Greek part of Macedonia, renaming the villages and mountains cannot hide the simple fact, not speculation but fact that there are thousands of Slavic people all over the world who never lived in FYR of Macedonia but in Kozani, Florina or Edessa and they left for Australia or America and they ALSO call themselves Macedonians because their grandgrandparents called themselves Macedonians, too. Think about this first before you start pulling that Alexander or Philippos stuff. Instead of reaching out with helping hand and focusing on building universal human friendship and understanding - the very values that Alexander the Great promoted in Persepolis and Babylon - Greece bullies its weaker neighbours.

In the recent past, there has been a new "trend" being set by the greek comentators on this site. Apart from all the nasty insults thrown at the other side, there is an emergence of a new "race in the Balkans" and it is called; "thegreekmacedonians"? So, if the Macedonians will not change their name, the greeks will. Just to suit themselves. Hey, its a free world! Call yourselves whatever you want; greek, greekmacedonian its ok, really. I am sure the real Macedonian's dont mind! At least they know who they are; Macedonian!

Oh my identity has been usurped! My beloved Hellas is in danger of being invaded! The crown jewels of my culture are being stolen!. Paranoia heaped upon delusion. What you are really trying to say Arvanitovlahs is that you stole the territory of the ethnic Macedonian nation, legitimised your theft with the Treaty of Bucharest, engaged in ethnic cleansing of the native ethnic Macedonian majority and importation of Arvanitovlahs from Turkey and Pontus in order to change the demographics on the ground in order to propagate the myth that Aegean Macedonia has always been "Greek" and then try to complete your genocide by renaming the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA to conceal your crimes. That corrupt little cabal, otherwise known as the EU, will sooner or later realise that it needs Macedonia more than Macedonia needs it. There is not a force in the world that can make the REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA change its name, let alone the Arvanitovlahs. We will outstay you!! I repeat once again. The corrupt, immoral EU can do what it wants, but Gay McDougall of the UN has told the truth and this really hurts you and your fake "Hellenic" cause.

I am a person with roots to FYROM. From what I have read FYROM was historically Serbian and partially Bulgarian land. Macedonia (Northern region in Greece) was Greek. To avoid confusion call FYROM Vardar as that was it's name before Tito came. Or a better idea would be to just unite with Serbia again or possibly Bulgaria. Skopje was Serbia's capital for a very long time.

What you are asking is even more ovious to someone who has kindergarden education. Now for Slavs to suddenly call yourselves Macedonians instead of Vardarkans is a big joke to the rest of the civilized world. Its like saying to the Germans that Beethoven was French.But then when you are trying to justify your existance especially at the expense of another countries culture and heritage. Keep it up the world is laughing at you.

Jan, some corrections: "in a way "live in a dark" - in school and for their whole lives they were taught nonsenses " right, the only truth was taught in the Eastern block countries "majority of Macedonia was incorporated into Greece in 1913, a huge Slavic minority lived there" part of which was exchanged with the greek minority in nearby countries, such as Bulgaria. And, you forget to mention that part of that slavic minority had tried to wipe off non-bulgarians during the struggle for Macedonia. "If the Greek state wouldn't be pursuing a discriminative policy against its Slavic minority (who was living for centuries in Macedonia, therefore the people called themselves Macedonians, too), those people might be nowadays proud and happy citizens of the Hellenic Republic. However, the Greek state systematically persecuted them, forced them to leave or to abandon their language and alienated them for good." For your information, the greek state persecuted its own citizens for their beliefs at the time much more than for their ethnic origin. Why were not Armenians and jews persecuted? The truth is that a) there was understandable suspicion towards people who had sided with the murderous VMRO comitadji during the struggle for macedonia as well as raids by an indignant Bulgaria. Surely if you were a VMRO member with blood on your hands during the struggle for MAcedonia, you would not expect a medal for murdering non-bulgarians, do you? Greece simply could not afford a 5th collumn. That said, Greece did NOT engage in practices such as Turkey's "armenian solution". What you call persecution was in no way any worse treatment than the treatment of its own citizens. For the record, the greek suspicions were vindicated if you trust FYROM sources when during WWII Macedonia was handed over to Bulgaria and Ivan Mihailovs Ohrana gangs. "there are thousands of Slavic people all over the world who never lived in FYR of Macedonia but in Kozani, Florina or Edessa and they left for Australia or America and they ALSO call themselves Macedonians because their grandgrandparents called themselves Macedonians, too." Fine. As long as it is ALSO and TOO. And this is the crux of the issue: What Greece wants is that anything Macedonian should NOT exclusively refer to the Minority slavic population with much shallower roots in the region, and EXCLUDE the majority greek macedonians. Which is what would happen if FYROM gets the name. So, unless you have any good argument why a name like "Northmacedonia, Northwest macedonia, Slavoalbanian Macedonia " or whatever is not acceptable(it is the truth after all), the greek position is no different from yours. And there would be no mention of Alexander, which is irrelevant, if the Skopje side did not come up with the insane idea that he was non-greek. I see no reason to help anyone with this insanity.

"from where did these 2.5 million people come from?" Answer: These are the offspring of the original ones(see the turkish sensus(Hilmi pasa) prior to the Balkan wars, plus any other greeks and their descendants who went there. People have moved from Crete to Salonika and vice versa; mobility in a country is normal(even Schwarzenegger is a Californian now). And, btw, don;t you have any Serbs, Croats and other ex-Yugoslavs in your country? "Amongst all those 2.5 million, are there any other nationalities at all?" Meaning immigrants? "Surely you don't expect us to believe greece is 100% pure greek, do you?" ??? Any greek citizen is greek, just like any US citizen is american. Modern countries do not discriminate. "Is there such a thing as a "Population Sensis" in greece, where people can freely express their ethnicity?" There are population sensus. Look up EU standards as to what information is allowed in the EU. "If there is, when was the last one held " 2001 " and where there any other nationalities registered and who are they?" This information is not requested and is probably against EU regulations to ask for such info. "When you take in consideration that even larger countries such as Germany, England have large ethnic minorities, surely greece of today in the Balkans, must have some other nationalities?" Well, nationality of all citizens is the nationality of the country. Ethnicity, it is not a secret there are for example armenian and jewish communities. They are well integrated. Do they want special status? If not, what makes you think you can speak for them. Same for Roma. They are not integrated, and they do NOT call themselves Roma. " who are you guy's and why are you trying to negate the existence of an entire race of people?" Who wants to negate the existence? Greece has recognized FYROM from the very beginning. But it has to stand up for ALL its citizens and therefore cannot allow a minority of people who decided 100 years ago to call themselves Macedonian because they though it would then be easier to unite with Bulgaria(see what the VMRO founders were saying about that) to represent the majority of macedonians. "What are you so scared of, isn't NATO and the EU enough to protect you?" Does anyone look scared?

LOL@"importation of Arvanitovlahs from Turkey and Pontus". Is it really possible that you are THAT ignorant?

"In slavic macedonian regions there are tens of villages that their inhabitants have believed and still do that they are Greek. All these macedonians are antifascists but a separate macedonian identity has not arised." M. Keramitziev 20-5-1947 One of the leaders of NOF AM-Skopje,Fond996 Egeska makedonjia vo Graganskata, Vojna 1946/49,24/12, Stamko Cheers all from FLORINA.MACEDONIA.GREECE

If you think the macedonian language is greek.then why when someone speaks to you in macedonian, you dont have a #$#$ clue what he is saying?

To Sotir Ilievski: "Macedonians have never claimed exclusive rights to the terms Macedonia and Macedonian. That is something that Greece and Greeks do" Yes, my friend but the actions of the FYROM's goverment shows something else. When Greece suggests a composite name, "offers" the name Macedonia and only asks for a little preposition in front of it, in order to share it peacefully and FYROM says NO.So, who really wants the exclusive rights of Macedonia? To Jan: I have to congratulate you for your investigation and your effort to be fair but Greece doesn't doubt about the existence of these people.It doubts about their right to use the word "Macedonia" arbitrarily and exclusively. Slavs used to live in a very specific area in Central Macedonia. Were the Greek people in Eastern Macedonia, for example,less Macedonians?That is the point. Greece denies the right of these people to have the monopoly of the word Macedonia. To Macedonian for life: Not the modern "macedonian" ofcourse! Tito named your language macedonian few decades ago. Alexander the Great would not understand neither a word of what you are saying..

My dear friend you are speaking like a fanatic. It may be interesting to know that there is a document in which president of USA Roosvelt warns Greece about the communist danger and the cultivated Tito's macedonian propaganda. So take it easy! I do not ask for you to change your national feelings but to realize that the word Macedonia describes an area and can not be a monopoly of anyone.

This new "trend" may show clearly that the Greek Macedonians don't ask for the exclusive right of using the word "Macedonia", although they have History in their side, in contrast with some of their neighbors!So why don't you follow their example by putting the preposition "slavo"?

Gee, you're a real scholar bud. You took the bait. Let me clarify my remarks . "Anything but ethnically Greek, Greek-Orthodox believers who were then deluded into thinking that they are Macedonians".

Just a short reply to your comments; 1) The reason that you can't answer any of my question is simple; greece doesn't permit freedom of expression or self identification to it's minorities therefore, no one really knows the precise numbers in question so the 2.5 million, may not be as greek as you think. 2)Do you have any idea how silly your comments are to outsiders of this issue. 3)This whole apsurd one sided let's force Macedonia to change her name concern,has turned greece into "the big joke to the rest of the civilized world." Belive me when I say that an incresing number of greek professionals are of the same opinion. Sit down and negotiate, dont negate and degrade. ok!

Its beacouse most greeks dont understand Bulgarian.

Because he speaks Bulgaro-Serbian Becase every Serbian,Bulgarian,Croatian,Bosnian can understand what he says.This is because their language is almost the same.This is not a Macedonian language this is a a mix of Bulgaro-Yugoslavian! And if you really spoke Macedonian, you could translate the Pella curse tablet.But none of you can.

My comments may seem silly to an outsider but that does not change the fact that FRYOM will never become a member of EU and Nato unless it wakes up and smells the roses. Even if we are 1 million we are still more than you and our history has a far larger claim to the Macedonian heritage which you are trying to steal and idenitfy with so you can legitimize your existance. Who cares what the rset of the world thinks,they know their history and they do not have FRYOM and Turkey as neighboors. Why is it so hard for you to be called Northern Macedonians with a geographical determinant. Are you scared of something? or are you after something else...You negotiate on equal terms you guys want your cake and to eat it too. Thank god that will never happen.

I missed the part where these 2.5 million appointed you to speak for them and their greekness or not. As for Greece permitting freedom of expression, elections are free and do not involve kalashnikofs. Nor are political objectors locked in a mental institution.( Does the name "Vasko" ring a bell?) Well, to a silly person, sane reasoning may look silly. How many outsiders would consider it silly if it was their identity at stake? Who is the joke remains to be seen. That a small minority holding a small part of what was always borderline Macedonia and with very little historical connection wants to claim exclusivity over the name gives me a good laugh. And FYI, Greece wants to negotiate. But if your position is that "we will not change our name", what is there to negotiate about? And furthermore you raise stupid issues of "Macedonian minority", when the (real)Macedonians in greece do NOT want to be a minority and they certainly are not going to tolerate people refering to Macedonians and exclude them, you confirm that you are a joke

The emotion of these nationalist comments are heartbreaking. I have been compiling maps and historiography for the past fifteen years and all of you will be surprised one day. So many people making attacks that the Republic has no exclisivity to the name because of the territory in the other Republic with the same name. Macedonians are not the ones complaining and insisting they have exclusivity. All of these people from Greece are proving the arguement for Macedonia to be correct. I happen to know that Greece takes special care of its people in Turkey and how they are treated by the Turkish govt. - this is the point of Macedonia and the Macedonians in Greece. The history has, most assuredly, been greatly distorted, and great effort has gone into this creation of an elite (long exstinct) race of people. I have to say that it was almost pulled off. It is sad, for this beautiful country(even without the annexation of Macedonia), to have such an ugliness among the people, that they would try to invigorate and justify the injustices against the people of its own country. If this name, Macedonia, means so much to Greece, then why are they cited by all the international organizations in the world for treating the people of this region with such contempt? The actions do not match the claims made by Greece and its people. I suggest you embrace your humanity and find a different approach to this problem. Open your mind to the possibility your leaders are not what you think they are and discover your own truths. So much information is available to you.

How exactly are the Greeks of Macedonia deluded in thinking that they're Macedonians? What makes the Slavs of Macedonia more "Macedonian" than the Greeks, who have lived there twice as long?

Your bias is obvious when you talk about "annexation" to refer to the liberation of Macedonia from Turkey, not any "macedonians". The point is that the greek population of Macedonia has always called themselves Macedonians and is the majority of Macedonians living in the bigger part of Macedonia(and the part that was always known by that name). Why would they give up the name to people who started using it 100 years ago as part of a plot to grab macedonia for Bulgaria and wipe out everybody else is surely something that no sane person can understand. Also, FYI, Macedonians in Greece are 2,5 million and the prime minister is one of them. The "international organizations" you refer to follow the same insulting practice of NOT referring to these 2,5 million people (who elect their own MPs and do NOT wish to be recognized as some sort of minority) as Macedonians and instead refer to Macedonians to a handful of people. You should learn that in a democracy a handful of people CANNOT claim to represent 2,5 million WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.

THE HISTORICAL AND GEOGRAPHICAL AREA OF SKOPJE IS CALLED DARDANIA AND NOT MACEDONIA. MACEDONIA(ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ) IS A GREEK HISTORICAL AND GEOGRAPHICAL AREA.

GUYS JUST LOOK AT EARLY MAPS OF ATHENS THE NAME GREECE IS THE CREATION OF THE BRITISH AND FRENCH JUST LIKE IRAN, IRAQ,PAKISTAN,IF YOU LOOK IT UP IT WAS CREATED IN 1821 YOUR INDEPENDANCE DAY FROM THE TURKS AND IN THAT YEAR YOU FOUGHT AND FREED GREECE END OF STORY YOU DON'T FREE HALF NOW AND HALF LATER