Western Powers Debate Bosnia's Future

INDEPENDENT RS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO. 5 10 50 years... whatever it takes.

Sorry Cvele it's not going to happen. Do you really think an independent RS would be able to join the EU, which is what everyone in the Balkans wants to do? The West won't make it happen and Russia can't.

You can't have two set of rules: one Kosovo, one for RS. Sooner or later freedom for RS will come because its people want so.

RS wants to join Serbia, then the EU. Bosniaks want to keep their country intact. Considering the history of genocide and ethnic cleansing, letting Serbia split Bosnia in half and take it as their own would be like letting Nazi Germany keep the countries they invaded after the war.

So, whatever it takes? Do you mean, by making war on the Bosniaks again, and fencing them in like the Palestinians??By expelling those still living in the "RS"?? By completing what Karadzic started?? And you think the Bosniaks will give up half of their country just like that, and be happy to live in a Balkan version of the Gaza Strip? When there are 70.000 Serbs between the Drina and Sarajevo, and 400.000 Bosniaks in Sarajevo alone? Stop dreaming! And it is the Serbs who have twop sets of rules: They don't recognize the independence of Kosovo, which came about because the Serbs tried to exterminate the Kosovars, yet they want the split of "RS" from Bosnia because they say "Serbs can't live with Bosniaks, Serbs will not be ruled by Muslims!" Well, the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina WILL have to come across, just like the white Afrikaners in South Africa had to come across, and it has certainly NOT brought them any loss! Because if they don't, the day they try secession from Bosnia-Herzegovina will not mean the end of Bopsnia-Herzegovina, but on the contrary the end of the "RS". And Cvele, the Bosniaks will never forget nor forgive what the Serbs did to them, not in 50, 100 or 1000 years!

No part of Bosnia is sustainable on its own, only the entire state of Bosnia and Herzegovina is economically, politically, and socially sustainable as well as being internationally recognized. Not even an inch of Bosnian territory can be given to any other country since this violates international law and would not be allowed to occur by its true citizens. People in Bosnia as well as foreigners working in the country need to work towards forming a democratic, multi-ethnic and multi-religious modern state that can protect all of its citizens equally on all of its internationally recognized and inviolable state territory. Every citizens in Bosnia and Herzegovina needs to feel that they are equally protected by and benefiting from the state and its institutions in the entire state territory only then will Bosnia and Herzegovina truly be able to join the EU and prosper as a democratic nation. A lot of hard work lays ahead for that vision to become reality, but it is a vision worth fighting and striving for.

Only a BIH in the international borders is possible and the future of this state and its citizens (bosniaks, orthodoxs, catholics, jews, roms and so on...) is able to survive in the democratic and european "way of life" like others western countries...Because every bosnian citizen must built a "bosnian citizenship" like french or german citizenship...and we must stop search all solutions in belgrade, zagreb, istanbul or moscow...build together this nation for the next generation and let down all political rethorics...

I would like to ask what does the term 'Bosniak' mean? If it is used to describe a citizen of Bosnia, then I suppose Serbians and Croats living there would also have to be 'Bosniaks'? From what I know there are two major ethnicities living in Bosnia, mainly Serbian and Croatian ethnicity, and three major religious groups - Orthodox and Catholic Christian and Muslim. To make a parallel, does it mean that English person, who would decide to become Muslim, stops being English, and becomes something else just based on religious choice?

Bosniaks are Bosniaks! Stop pretending you don't know who or what Bosniaks are! You know, everybody knows! It is only those who deny the Bosniaks their identity who would ask what Bosniaks are, to question and put in doubt their identity! Bosniaks are Bosniaks! True, there may be descendants from ethnic Serbs and Croats among them. But 1.) the Bosniaks are descendants of the Bosnians (Bosnjani) who were to a larger part Catholic in times of the Ottoman conquest, who adopted Islam (and for what reason is not relevant here, it was their good right to do so!) and 2.) in almost 600 years they have had enough time to form a national identity! So stop denying them their identity by saying they are "islamicized Serbs or Croats!" ou are like the other Serbofascists who say: "Bosnia-Herzegovina a country? 1,9 million Bosniaks a people? Don't be ridiculous!" Bosniaks are Bosniaks! And nobody has a right to deny them their identity, their religion, their land and their freedom! The Serrbofascists do all that, and that's fascism! Also, by saying that they are islamicized Serbs or Croats you imply that they are "traitors to their own people", whom it is legitimate to hunt down and destroy, or rechristianize! That too is Fascism! Before 1918, the Bosniaks had the right to call themselves that ("bosnali" or "bosnevi" in Ottoman times, "Bosniaken" by the Austrohungarians). Only after 1918 were they forced to define themselves as either Croat or Serb, and only in the 1970s did Tito allow them to call themselves "Muslims" Which is unfair because it forced them to define themselves through their religion, and continued to deny them their national identity. And your comparison is totally unfair: The Bosniaks have existed since the inception of the Kingdom of Bosnia some time in the 10th century, and they have for the most part been Muslims for 600 years almost, and they intend to remain so! And they intend to stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina, their homeland And to all those who say "Christians will never be ruled by Muslims" I answer "The Bosniaks will never be fenced in as the Palestinians are by the Israelis!" And as for Bosnian, yes, this refers to all citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovinas regardless of their ethnic or religious background, but only to those who see Bosnia-Herzegovina as their homeland and are willing to stand up against those who would destroy it. And since many, many Bosnian Serbs and Croats say they are not Bosnians at all but want Anschluss of the carvesd up territories to (a fictitious) Greater Serbia or Greater Croatia, I do NOT see those as Bosnian citizens. And all those little Karadzics and Mladics out there who have blood of innocent Bosniaks on their hands, and those who stand for them, HAVE FORFEITED ALL THEIR RIGHTS IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA!!!!

For antifascist antifascist?? give me a break ...you are full of hate for the "serbian and croatian infidels". And by the way...Bosnia it's after all a mini-Yugoslavia so it's logic that will have the same fate.

Dear Jelena, since you do not know who the Bosniak people are you should perhaps make an attempt to educate yourself regarding that matter. The simplest way to learn more is to use Wikipedia to read the article they have on Bosniaks. There are also other sources such as the Encyclopedia Brittanica, etc. The Bosniaks in Bosnia are an ethnic group and nationality that traces their lineage back over a thousand years. Their Islamic faith today, just as their Catholic faith in the past, does not define who they are but is rather only one aspect of their national identity. The old Bosnian Kings that used to rule over the Bosnian territory (before the Ottoman conquest) were for the most part Catholic Bosniaks (i.e. the ancestors of today's Muslim Bosniaks). The religions may have changed but the enthicity, nationality, and nation have not. Bosnia is still the homeland of the Bosnaiks today as it was for the past thousands years, as well as being the homeland for their Bosnian Serb and Bosnian Croat compatriots. Religion and ethnicity in Bosnia are related but they are not one and the same. Bosniaks are a nation not a religious group as you claim and upon furhter research on your part this will become clearer to you. The false idea that Bosniaks are only a religious group in the Balkans has been created and perpetrated for the purpose of denying the Bosniaks their legitimate claim to their nation (i.e. Bosnia and Herzegovina). This idea has been proven wrong using historical and anthorpological reseach and is today only used intentianlly by certain Serb and Croat neofascist groups that want to continue their own goals of stealing Bosnian territory. This myth is dangerous and has been used to justify the gruesome methods of ethnic cleansing and genocide that were used in the 92-95 Bosnian War. Since I assume that you are not one of those people but are rather uninformed on the matter I hope that learning more about the Bosniak poeple will prevent you from making the mistake of buying into this dangerous fascist propaganda which only leads to more violence against the Bosniak people who have been victims too many times before in their long history.

I am sorry, but apparently you are only proving the case for my question. Quote: “1.) the Bosniaks are descendants of the Bosnians (Bosnjani) who were to a larger part Catholic in times of the Ottoman conquest, who adopted Islam…” It appears that you became ‘Bosniaks’ after conversion to Islam, or am I wrong? Furthermore, terms ‘Bosnali’ or ‘Bosnevi’ in Ottoman times, and ‘Bosniaken’ in Austro-Hungarian times (again taken from your post) were used to describe ALL citizens (or to put it more precisely for that time, inhabitants) of Bosnia, not only its Muslim part. All parts of Bosnian society have roots in Bosnia, that stem from medieval times, so making a suggestion that only ‘Bosniaks’ can claim that inheritance is not true. In the end it seems that right, contemporary term for citizens of Bosnia is Bosnian OR Bosniak, whichever you might chose, but then the other term becomes obsolete and without meaning and should be discarded from use as such, or used in the same context, if you want to use both terms.

DefenderOfTruth has once again said it better than I could. (thank you very much): And as for those Bosnian Serbs and Croats who tried (and continue to try) to destroy Bosnia-Herzegovina, since they reject the Bosnian heritage anyway, and are only interested in stealing the land from the Bosniaks, they can hardly be considered Bosnian citizens. And it is not true that the Ottomans called the Serbs Bosniaks, nor the Austrohungarians. Where did you get that from? But I don't believe you don't know. Instead, you want to say "Bosniaks don't exist!" And it was the Ottomans who allowed most of the Bosnian Serbs to settle there. And if Serbs really suffered so much under the Turks then why is it that thir bishop said "Better to live under the Sultan's turbn than under the tiara of the Pope!" The right term for the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina is Bosnian, regardless of their ethnic or religious backgrounds. And for those Bosnians descended from people who took up the Musalim faith after the Ottoman conquest it's Bosniaks, because just calling them Bosnian Muslims does not do them justice. Because their Islamic faith (to what extent they practice it is really not relevent in this context) is, as DefenderOf Truth righly said, only one aspect of their ethnic and national identity. And I don't think that "Jelena" doesn'rt know that. The truth is out there for all those who want to know. But the Serbofascists not only don't want to know, they intentionally deny that the Bosniaks exist, in order to confuse the uninitiated and ignorants and make them thnk "oh well, who knows what really happened". Like those who, 54 years after World War II continue to insist that there never was a Holocaust and that the gas chambers never existed (And let me tell you that I, as a Muslim, having lived in Europe now for so long know that they existed and that there WAS a holocaust: And there was also a genocide against the Bosniaks. I've known many people who barely escaped it, or lost their relatives through it!) And I do not hatwe ALL the Serbs or Croats, but I do all those who tried tzo destroy Bosnia-Herzegovina and tegh Bosniaks: And I feel that my intelligence is insulted when at one time they say that Bosnia and the Bosniaks don't exist or should be erased from the face of the Earth, and on the other side they still claim to be Bosnians when it suits them, so they can still claim the land.

Bosniak refers to people of that particular nationality in Bosnia and Herzegovina (and other countries) but Bosnian refers to all the citizens of Bosnia (including all other national groups in Bosnia). Just like Bosniaks living in Serbia are Bosniaks by nationality but they are Serbians by citizenship since they live in Serbia. In that same vein the Bosnian Serbs are Serbs by nationality but they are Bosnians by citizenship since their homeland is Bosnia and Herzegovina. You are not correct in claiming that Bosniaks did not exist before the Ottomans because it has been shown through historical and anthropological research that they did. Aren't you the least bit curious about the real history of Bosnia? Wouldn't you want to learn more about it? Because if you did you would realize that you are speaking from an uninformed standpoint on that topic. Bosnia has had that name much earlier then the Ottoman conquest and it had it's own royalty (such as King Tvrtko) who considered themselves Bosnians and not Serb or Croat. Bosniaks were always a unique nationality separate from the Serbs and Croats and these differences go way beyond simple religious differences. And just like the Croats have a claim to the Croatian nation, and Serbs have a claim to the Serbian nation, in exactly the same way the Bosniaks have a claim on their Bosnian nation (which is also the homeland of their Bosnian Serb and Bosnian Croat compatriots).

Yes, indeed, I feel nno sympathy whatsoever for those who tried to erase Bosnia-Herzegovina from the map, from Karadzic and Mladic down to everyone who raised a hand against a Bosniak. And also for those who now intend to fence them in like the Palestinians are fenced in. And of course not for all those who continue to support them. It is them who are at the same time, evil and stupid, and such should never have been born. And what you say about Bosnia-Herzegovina not being able to exist as a state is also utterly false: first, it is NOT an artificial state as Yugoslavia was, and second, by the same logic, other sttes which contain multiple ethnic groups (which too may not feel any sympathy for the other)- like India, Russia and China should then also fall apart soon, so don't insult my intelligence by saying that Bosnia-Herzegovina can't exist!"

It is not logical for you to say that multiethnic countries can not exist. They have existed for hundreds of years and continue to exist. Take a look at the US for example, do you give credence to the idea that because there are tens of million of african americans, latinos, and asian americans living in the US the country should be split along ethnic lines? There is no need to do that since in the US there is a government and a social consciousness that says that all the citizens of the US can feel themselves equally protected by the state and benefit from the state, and that everyone is going to be treated based on their personalities and personal choices and not simply based on their skin color or ethnic group. That is the democratic and inclusive system that Bosnia and Herzegovina needs in order to become a functional country. Paul, the world is becoming evermore diverse and in today's modern political zeitgeist the idea of creating ethnically pure states, especially those too small or underdeveloped to be self-sustaining is simply not accepted by the vast majority of people and the international community as a whole. Sure every ethnically and religiously mixed country encounters special challenges because of its diversity, but one should look at diversity as a blessing and not as a curse. There is more excitement and creativity in a diverse society then in one that is homogenous. We should all encourage diversity and the tolerant open mindset that comes with it. Diversity is the biggest gift a nation can have provided that its people agree to treat each other with respect and to establish a democratic system that cherishes and protects that diversity. It is such an inclusive democratic system that Bosnia needs. Bosnia needs to move forward into the diverse and inclusive future and not move back into the xenophobic past of Hitler and his disciples Milosevic, Karadzic, and Mladic. Politicians in Bosnia who do not subscribe to such an inclusive country (such as the foul- mouthed Mr. Dodik) should be sidelined from mainstream politics or should leave the country altogether to go spew their hate-filled rhetoric somewhere else. As Beethoven said in his famous choral symphony "all men will become brothers" so in Bosnia will all its citizens see each other as fellow compatriots once an inclusive and democratic system of governance is established.

there is really some ignorant people out there, the comments under thee articles are usualy best examples. Like any one of us cares in the slightest what some Serbian thinks of out history or identity. The bottom line is there is no comparison between Kosovo and RS, WE didn't take Kosovo don't blame us, and lastly there will be no independant RS, a genocidal entity which is younger then most of my records.