Macedonia MPs Urge Strategy in 'Name' Row

FYROM Parliament makes no sense. What are they talking about? Sounds like they had a vote to confirm they will do nothing productive. Time for FYROM to think of their peoples future.

Comical Gruevski is at it again! So now he is arguing that Greece has radicalised its position. Clearly he needs to have a cold shower, sit down, and review HIS own actions over the past 18mths or so to get a complete understanding of why FYROM has now been left out in the cold!! During this reflection he can analyse what part HE and HIS government have played in this dispute. Maybe he should reflect on all his provocative acts such as renaming Skopje's airport to 'Alexander the Great', renaming streets and placing statues of notable ancient greeks throughtout skopje while at the same time trying to dispute these people's greekness, claiming that Greece's largest province is 'occupied lands', claiming to be a direct descendant of Alexander the Great yet in the same breath identifying himself as a slav!, claiming vast numbers of 'fyromian nationals' live within Greece's border yet unable to substantiate or at least let us know where these hundreds of thousands of people live!! Maybe he should also reflect back on his part in the events leading up to the Bucharest summit. More importantly, maybe he should reflect on how he allowed himself to let the opportunity of entering NATO (and thus securing his nation's future) slip away. Last but not least he should also reflect on his role in the secret deals with the US behind Greece's back that supposedly would have secured FYROM's name and identity. This last action has ensured that Greece will scrutinise EVERYTHING at the negotiations! No chance of just plain Macedonia/n' for language, name of citizens, kiss the dual name formula goodbye - It will be ONE name, for all uses! History? Expect clear distinction of the two histories. Unfortunately, no amount of whitewashing or blameshifting will change the fact that HE and HIS government have singlehandedly destroyed FYROM's bargaining position. He now talks about unity, but the reality is that when the name changes so will the name of its citizens and the language. Gruevski has realised this too late...

This stateless seems to be going down the drain faster than expected and no one from its officials seems to have the slightest idea how to help it at least survive ("prosper" sounds like the Snowhite fairytale but even that coming true is more likely). Wake up and smell the cofee people! The deal is simple; Deal with Greece or off the map you go! It is going to be a painful deal but if you keep on selling it as a "humiliation" is not gonna taste any sweeter.

The factors about "identity" and "language" were never put on the negotiation table since the last 17 years. The UN envoy Mathew Nimitz was set to find a solution about the NAME, and the UN authorised him for that purpose ONLY. Now, that the nationalistic VMRO regime is pressured by the whole international community to accept a composed name with Greece and sort this dispute once and for all, this "comedian Saakasvili-style" leader Gruevski, "discovered" that he is going to put more demands on the negotiation table (about "idenity" and "language") so the negotiation process can be jeopardised by all means. Fortunatelly, the whole international community has now realised what kind "democratic" leader Gruevski really is, and what kind of "goverment" (regime to say it better) VMRO really is, and they focus all their pressure on him, to stop acting with blind nationalism and accept a solution. He can again stall the negotiation process and jeopardise the negotiations only for some short-term popularity in his own public. But the fact is, that he is a blind nationalist, elected with undemocratic methods in his own country, "selling nationalism to his own public" for short term popularity, and the whole internationall community now knows it very well.

strategy?how about a good game of stratego, Slavs with the blue flag, Albanians with the red flag...

it is best if FYROM politicians remain intransigent. I do not see any qualification for statehood. FYROMians should declare association to any naighboring country and accordingly the land should be apportioned to these countries.

Much though I agree with the Macedonian 'side' here, that quote makes little sense. Let's start with language. The best way to protect Macedonian right now would be to join the EU. At that point, Macedonina is a European language, whatever Greece says. As an aside here, Catalan spoken by 12 million is not an EU language. Once language has that protection, much of the identity and culture fall into place. It is fanciful to believe that outsiders can not form an informed view about a region with a shared history. That that history is shared, not always comfortably, diminishes no one. Both sides should be mature enough to accept it. Indeed, if distinct identity and cultures are so important one has to wonder rather why both Greece and Macedonia see European integration as a goal. If anything will dilute identity is is not the addition (or not) of the word 'north' but the EU. Identity and cultures are really a red-herring. Like it or not, both Greece and Macedonia are modern political entities. They are shaped and defined by modern forces, not long-dead historical figures. Both need to have more confidence and belief. Similarly this stuff about affirming sovereignty is a bit of an over reaction. Successive Greek governments have gladly affirmed the Macedonian claim to post-Yugoslav statehood (notwithstanding some unwise statements in the early 1990s). This point has been made clear, it is ground that does not need to be gone over again. Macedonia has made its point and made it well. It has played a long game and, frankly, it has won the moment a sensible combination containing the words 'Republic' and 'Macedonia' is agreed. Gruevski should realise that many of his predecessors would have regarded this as a good outcome. Greece has nothing to be proud of, its exceptionalism has been embarassing and its jingoism plain to see. Its disregard for the Interim Agreement is especially shameful. But Macedonia needs to see that statesmen make history, they are not dictated to by history. The balance, unpalatable though it is for many reasons, is that The Republic of Northern Macedonia (or 'Macedonia' as everyone will call it) is the way forward. The other demands more or less fall into place from there. It's that simple.

Identity, language, culture and history need no protectors as long as the people remember them. The entire issue is not how anyone will call himself or the language they speak; it is how this will be presented to the rest of the world. And, like any freedom, your freedom ends when it steps on someone else's freedom. Same here: Your identity cannot step on any one else's identity, especially when you are a minority in the region. Greece has a very valid point here and has acted in a very positive manner, despite numerous unintelligent provocations(most recently the "macedonian minority" and "properties" issue, not to mention the blatant violation of the interim agreement which was " this is the name while you try to work out a mutially agreed solution", not "the solution is for you to accept a name that steps on the identity of more people in Greece than the population of the new state" or renaming of the airport ): It has recognized the new state, has established normal relations, even supported it in times of need, e.g. the Kossovo refugee crisis, and has worked to reach a mutually agreed compromise solution. The only threat the new state has faced in it short history was a civil war, not of Greece's doing. Greece only used the veto as a last resort when the other side had made it clear that it was not going to accept any compromise. It would be nice to see a solution to this stupid dispute, though I am not sure a simple "North Macedonia" for all uses will suffice; North Macedonia will have to work hard to reverse the seeds of extremism and plain history revisionism it has cultivated for so many years.

I feel sorry for FYROM and its good people who have good intentions and the willingness to live in a free democracy. Realities must be faced and that includes the difficult realities of the past and understanding them. Obviously the dilemma here is that there basically are two peoples claiming the same thing and ownership. FYROMs ruling government has taken this issue out of context the past few months and has lost ground. The international community does not care whose history is whose and nationalistic ideologies, they simply want a name solution. Greece and FYROM can fight amongst themselves about these issues for eternity. Just solve the name and get on with it.

Strangely, my earlier post seems to have been cut off at the top. The quote from the article that should have referred to was, 'This document should protect Macedonia's highest state and national interests, as well as the identity of the Macedonian nation, language, history and culture. It should reaffirm Macedonia's status as a sovereign and independent country.' James - an interesting comment (but a pretty strange reading of the IA there! It did not dictate to the parties what they had to do internally, it was mostly about foreign relations and cross-border cooperation!). I think I agree with some of your conclusions, but less of the analysis - four thoughts. 1 - 'Your identity cannot step on any one else's identity, especially when you are a minority in the region.' That seems rather to stretch the point. Are you saying that minorities can not co-exist, surely not? What about a European identity? Greeks are a minority in Europe, are they diminished by being European? Of course not! Identities are not something one chooses freely. Or gets to dictate to others. 2 - 'The only threat the new state has faced in it short history was a civil war, not of Greece's doing.' What about the astonishing foreign policy pursued by the Samaras foreign ministry that went as far as him discussing annexation of Macedonia with Milosevic? I agree with the point you make that Greece and Macedonia are far closer 'on the ground' than the Internet hot-heads would have us believe but in saying that, the idea that Greece has somehow been ambivalent to the notion of Macedonian statehood overlooks some difficult truths about the 1990s the Greece steadfastly refuses to accept. On the more specific question of the name, Greece has not really been positive, rather it pursued a rather unclear policy that seemed to satisfy no one. It was not until very recently that the Greek government really came up with firm ideas. I would not as such say Greece was negative, but positive seems to again stretch the point. 3 - You talk about refusal to compromise. This is perhaps the heart of the matter. My view is that one state does not get to name another. Convention in Europe and around the world is clear. Unless you can explain to me why Greece is a special case. The Macedonian case is a strong one. Will the Greeks be asking the citizens of Athens Georgia to 'compromise?' In the modern world, 'Republic,' is an adequate identifier. This is why i would oppose the country being called simply 'Macedonia.' 4 - 'will have to work hard to reverse the seeds of extremism and plain history revisionism it has cultivated for so many years.' As the Americans would say, don't believe the hype. In some ways I almost wish the picture the Greeks try to paint about revisionism were true - that might actually give this silly dispute some actual point. But it's not true. I realise you probably won't believe me, but it just isn't. Your average Macedonian on the street is quite capable of reconciling his identity and statehood with that vision that emerged between 1848 and 1950, a vision that had little if anything to do with ancient times. He really is. Gruevski may have found an electoral flag of convenience, but that is all it is to my mind. Macedonian politicians have, sadly, been of a poor quality. Indeed, the cynic in me points out that Macedonians are far better with modern statehood than most Greeks! It is an interesting comment though and I don't disagree with some of what you have to say.

It really bothers me the stealing of the historical greek names and symbols from the artificial state of Fyrom. Whenever I hear the slavs call themselfs "macedonians" I feel sick. I feel angry when they say "Skopje the capital of Macedonia". Stop this crazyness. ONLY THE GREEK PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN MACEDONIA HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL THEMSELFS MACEDONIANS. AND THESSALONIKI IS THE CAPITAL OF MACEDONIA. SLAVS BACK OF.

It is the Greeks who insist on an irrevocable change to the ethnic and linguistic identity of the Macedonians, because that is what the irrational "name" dispute has been about all along. Greece is completely spooked by the thought that the recognition of a distinct ethnic Macedonian identity, language and culture, not only in the Republic of Macedonia, but also in Aegean and Pirin Macedonia, will not only expose its appalling mistreatment of the Macedonians for the last 100 years and the discriminatory laws it has enacted to prevent ethnic Macedonians from returning to their places of birth and reclaiming their illegally confiscated properties, but also give the lie to the myths it has been peddling that the modern Greeks are direct descendents of the Ancient Hellenes and the Ancient Macedonians; incidentally myths which underpinned the creation of the Great Powers-sponsored "Hellenic" state in 1832. This is why Greece insists on a change to our identity. Not to do so would lead to it having to relinquish the false premises of "greatness and glory", "continuity with the glorious past" and "national homogeneity" which have been the leitmotivs of its existence and the way it attempts to legitimise itself to the world. It would have to face up to the unpalatable, but very real truth that modern Greek identity, like all modern identities in the Balkans, are 18th and 19th century creations which have little to do with ancient grandeur and unbroken rectilinear descent. That's what it's all about and no amount of propaganda about irredentism and threats to territorial integrity can hide this indisputable fact. That is why the name of our country will remain the Republic of Macedonia, the language Macedonian and our ethnic identity Macedonian.

Funny...there is an article that FYROM is now in a recession..........who cares about this little irrelevant country. As far as I know, this fake country has always been in a recession. Just goes to show you that people working on this site ate pro FYROM. A bit of advice to Balkan insight...report on big and relavant issues and not minor and irrelevant ones. There is no difference of what people think about FYROM and the Republic of Congo so stop reporting things people do not care about.

I really disagree with Dara! Europe has suffered in the past centuries from attitudes such as Gruevski's and Greece which is a modern but also MATURE political entity and a member of the European family from the 60's really, knows that very well. I really think that we (Greeks as well as the rest of the Europeans) should in plain english "humiliate" FYROM. This may sound cruel but we should make it clear that attitudes like this are burried in the deepest past and whoever tries to revive them should bare the cost. It is a golden opportunity to do that (humiliate FYROM's attitude) cause even if this statelet dismantles the tears and the consequences in the rest of the continent will be negligible yet the signal will be crystal clear.

... which, if true, happened during his administration and in response his redicalized position. So, well done, Mr. Gruevski

Pando: you may want to take a look at non-binding US Senate Resolution 300, and, pay attention to the name of one of the three Senators that sponsors the resolution... The spectre of Stettinius is still with you. kind regards

Really, this is funny, please keep on posting these fairy tales: "Greece is completely spooked by the thought that the recognition of a distinct ethnic Macedonian identity, language and culture, not only in the Republic of Macedonia, but also in Aegean" ... as if 2.5 million greek Macedonians will wake up one day and wish to associate with you. "and Pirin Macedonia" why exactly is Greece supposed to be spooked by what happens in a part of Bulgaria? "will not only expose its appalling mistreatment of the Macedonians for the last 100 years" -you mean slav macedonians, right? Because you know the greek prime minister is Macedonian and it would be a great joke to say he is mistreated. What exactly was that mistreatment? -population exchanges with people getting to live in the country they felt they belonged to? -tolerance for those who sided with the comitadji trying to wipe out greek macedonians? -containing fascist comitadji gangs who sided with the nazis during WWII? - "and the discriminatory laws it has enacted to prevent ethnic Macedonians from returning to their places of birth and reclaiming their illegally confiscated properties" in how many countries can you just leave on your free will for some 60 years and then your descendants come back and reclaim property you may have left behind? Because you know nobody targeted slav macedonians because of their origin; the partizans went after all nazi collaborators and the government forces after all left-wing guerillas. "he myths it has been peddling that the modern Greeks are direct descendents of the Ancient Hellenes and the Ancient Macedonians;" Right, modern greeks came from Mars, where they happened to pick up the same language as the ancient greeks. "incidentally myths which underpinned the creation of the Great Powers-sponsored "Hellenic" state in 1832" Huh? There was very bloody revolution from 1821-1829 you know where the greeks faced the Turks, Egyptians and a small civil war. Much more deserving of a state than your efforts, I might say.

What is with the nationalistic subjective and hypocritical comments from you Greek people. You accuse Macedonians of being extremists and radical when you do the same thing. Humiliate a country??? Gee thats veeeery "European". The website is BALKAN insight, not GREEK insight, of course it is going to talk about the issues of an insignificant country in the BALKANS! Just as much as Greek people get offended with non-greeks calling themselves macedonians, Macedonians get offended when they are called Fyromians... face it... we have a shared history whether either of us like it or not. Do people just disappear? If we are not Macedonian what are we and where did we come from, where will we go? (Lest we forget the nation that called everything non-greek barbarian... LIKE PHILIP AND ALEXANDER THE GREAT =P ) Are you just as proud talking about the insignificant macedonians as you are of the Jews that you removed from Thessaloniki and sent to Poland to be exterminated? A typical Greek response to that would be: "Just like the minority issues, it's all irrelevant! it's okay for us to have a dark past and even present, but not you!" We Macedonians really are stupid, we don't know how to cover our tracks and lobby the way Greeks do, look at the way they've invaded a BALKAN insight website with their NATIONALISTIC attitudes like parasites!!

Where is this Greece that you all talking about, the good, the mature, the nice.....???/ ON MARS maybe, but not on this Earth for sure. It is time for you to wake up, put the hate aside, we live in the 21 cent. Doesn't matter the history, what matters is that the UN chapters of rights guarantees to all ethnic groups on Earth to determine themselves, to choose their destiny....if you deny (and that's exactly what Greece regime is doing) you braking the international laws (on planet Earth).....but again this Greece must be somewhere else.....

Erope has suffered various calamities over the centuries because of extreme nationalist positions such as yours. Greece is a pariah state which only manages to get away with its imbecilic behviour because is it part of a protection racket run by the Don Corleones who also masquerade as the "leaders" of the EU and NATO. You and your kind will never change our name Republic of Macedonia. Discover your own true identity you wannabee "Hellenes".

In general an interesting viewpoint. Just a couple of clarifications: 1. You are correct, greeks, french, italians etc are all europeans, without being any less greek, french or italian, but NONE of these countries names itself "republic of Europe". Had such a case arisen, it would create a confusion with (at least) the EU, which also calls its citizens "europeans". But in such a case the EU would NOT dictate a new name, it would probably ask the offending country to get a qualifier, that would simply explain that this is not ALL of Europe. Same case here: Nobody is dictating any name. The only think being asked is a qualifier that will accurately represent just that we are talking about a PART and not the whole of Macedonia. Pretty much like South and North Korea. Neither country is all of Korea, even though they are ethnically related. "Republic" is a qualifier as you say, but an insufficient one. Because the republic's government would speak for "Macedonians", although it is NOT the government of the majority of Macedonians. We already have examples of such confusion: Gruevski talking about Macedonian minorities in Greece, which has a different meaning in the two countries, "Macedonians" interpreting greeks shouting "Macedonia is Greece" as hostile, when in reality greeks never refer to FYROM as "Macedonia", so it is clear that they mean their Macedonia. 2.I do not believe that annexation was anytime seriously on the table(at least as far as Greece was concerned) and I believe Kiro Gligoroff was of the same opinion at the time. At any rate, if Milosevic proposed it and it did not happen, it Must have been because it was nixed by Greece, right? So, even though this might hurt both sides to swallow, Greece may have actually ... saved "Macedonia" from Milosevic. A major reason is probably that because Greece believes it has the moral high ground and, perhaps a bit more importantly, international law on its side in the issues vs. Turkey, it would be unthinkable to break international law with one hand and ask for its protection with the other. Not even greek politicians are that stupid! This is the major reason why Greece has not and is very unlikely to recognize Kossovo or S.Ossetia and Abhazia for that matter. Talking to Milosevic is one think; adopting any proposals he might have made is a completely different one. I agree with you that Greek policy on the name has not crystallized until recently. However, details of the negotiations are not generally public knowledge and it may be that when faced with maximalist demands from the very start, it makes sense to also adopt a maximalist stand(which I agree Greece did not do well) in order to get a reasonable middle ground. I really have not seen any hints of compromise, until very recently from the other side, and these hints shown mostly by Cevrenkovski have been even more unclear. It looks like the other side is speaking with two very different voices. The way a modern day dialog is expected to run is: what are your(the other party's) concern and what an we do to accomodate them? Certainely this is not what happens with internet hotheads, but I hope this is what happens in the negotiations. 3)"One state does not get to name another". True. But here we are not talking about that; we are talking about imposing a name, but only about nixing one. In fact not even that, asking for a small modification and no sane person can see what can possibly be wrong with that. Noone can seriously deny that "Macedonia" does NOT represent all Macedonians, but only a minority. And we really have no precedent where one country wants to claim the identity of a part of another country that is even bigger. It looks to me like Eire say having colonized the US and today being a part of the US and N.Ireland protestants in a breakaway scenario claiming "Republic of Ireland", "irish language, culture etc", though they are definitely no more than a small minority of irish at best and definitely no more irish than the rest. So I do not think Greece is a special case at all. It is just that there is no precedent to this. It is like a Norwegian breakaway province renaming itself "Repubic of Scotland". It maks no sense. To this Greeks add memories from the times where there was a real plan to create a bulgarian dominated Macedonia by wiping out the rest;(yes, these are the Balkans and history leaves ugly scars. Internet hotheads as you say tend to aggrevate these scars and certainely Gruevski is doing little to stop that) In your example, Americans had the common sense to qualify their Athens as Athens, Georgia. I know no greek who is offended by this-in fact it is kind of an honor. But Athens, GA does NOT claim to be THE original Athens with ties to Pericles. Clarity makes for good relations. You mention that the average north-macedonian also makes no claim to ancient times, so what on earth is wrong with stating this in a name, perhaps dissapointing the hotheads and settling this stupid issue once and for all? In my view just the cost of having negotiators and Nimetz for all those years is not worth dissapointing a few hotheads. If, as you say, the average Macedonian on both sides understands that there are other people who have been in the region for over 1400 years and may also be called Macedonian, why is it so hard to get a qualifier? Maybe you can understand this, because I cannot. I won't debate which country has the poorest politicians; perhaps both countries would gladly conceed this one. I just hope they get this solved, because the world has much more serious issues