‘Greece Must Discuss’ Macedonian Refugees

Two words: Dream on!

"Macedonianism" again rears it 'ugly head' ... 'alongside the name issue'... gentlemen, and ladies, this is beginning to look like the archetypical Monte Python School of Balkans Diplomacy, or, the "joke with the hoxha (muslim quasi-official)" as they say in Greece. Can you image the reaction to this on Thursday at the State Department, Athens and at the French presidency's offices? Guess it's time for the ethnic Germans to return to the Sudetanland, Tyrol and Moravia as well, not to mention the Italian on the Dalmatian coast and Portoroz (uppity Slovenia)...

Bravo MIlososki

There are not any Macedonians in FYROM, they are slavs and slavs come from east..

What about the families of the Greek victims in the civil War? Would Milososki compensate them?We're talking about 100000 people dead.What about the destruction on property that his compatriots created in the country? Would he compensate those as well?If the answer to all these is yes ,then lets sit on the table and negotiate.

What is next? How can one negotiate with these people? Do they even know what is happening in the world? What century are they living in? Ringo said it all!

You Vardarskans do not deserve to exist even as a province. During WW2 you tried your best to bleed the land of Democracy and you failed. My beloved country should squeeze you economically. That is all it needs to do.

Those skopians heading north during the communist wars abducted 28 000 Greek children for the crime of being real Macedonians. Harry Turman was pushing for compensation for this highly dispicable and deplorable actions the fake Macedonians committed. The compensation needs to go from FYROM to Greece as the world community demanded in 1950 at the UN.

Continuing like this will only result in another 17 years delay to your progress.... Nationalism belongs to 1908, not 2008....for your own sake New Mac, please come forward to the 21st century.... and always remember that the very countries you always talk kaka about (Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia) ARE your true only friends! Malakes! In the mean time, hope you enjoy your communist picknicks in Skopje's George Bush Park

Greeks and Bulgaria can claim the same...since parts of Bulgaria and greece r now in FYROM. So, lets go back in time and let Greece claim half of Turkey...makes sense...smart FM your country has...wake up.

I have noticed some of the things that the pro-Greeks' comments have in common include: to keep on denying of the truth, to admit of the horrific ethnic cleansing experienced by Macedonians during the Greek Civil War and to endlessly downgrade all of the Macedonians. My parents, grandparents and all of their families have gone all of that, whether it was prior, during, after the Greek Civil War and up to this day today! My family are part of the many other Macedonians who experienced the torture and hardships brought about by the cruel anti-Macedonian Greeks. The Macedonian government should have brought this on the table from the very start instead of worrying how the Greeks would react. The Greek leaders are self-centred and racist people and would do whatever is in their best interests. Greeks can't get along with any of their neighbours, be it Macedonia, Albania, Turkey or even Cyprus. They also deny the proven fact that they are not the oginal Greeks. They would not accept their Asia-Minor- African ancestral background who migrated to the Balkans well after the Macedonians. By the way, Ringo and the rest of the Greek fanatics (I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same person)- all of your comments are long and boring. It appears you are skipping many lines between your paragraphs intentionally. Are you trying to make your comments stand out? Macedonians are not Greek and will always be Macedonian. No one can take that away from us.

First he says Macedonia makes no claims against Greece, then he says those who fled after the civil war deserve property compensation. So, Greece's argument about FYROM's irredentism seems to be correct, as the FM makes clear here. If you flee an area because you lost a war, does that mean you have a right of return? Let's not forget that Tito's attempt during this war was to dismember Greece and give Salonica to the southern Yugoslavians. When he failed, the populace fled. So explain to me why you should get property back? Also, note: Greece has a squatters law. If you leave your property unattended it automatically converts to the state. This is a law in practically every country in the world. If you don't mow your lawn, for instance, in the USA, the state can seize your property. People from FYROM have never gotten over the fact that Greece wrested Salonica from Turkey and made it her own, nor have they been able to get over WW2 where the Slavophone population allied with then Nazis and occupied Salonica and environs (as 1 million Greeks died) nor have they gotten over yet another attempt to dismember Greece, an attempt they lost. FYROM's irredentism is obvious. Greece should consider stepping up its campaign against FYROM, and I'm not just talking about the name issue. The country should be completely isolated by Greece, an embargo. Let them have fun dealing with their internal problems after that. You want to cause problems for Greece? Fine.

Because Greek and Macedonians bloods are match from the past. It's clear that the Macedonians want to be themselves. The east people who came to Macedonian are not the real Macedonians, because the bloods doesn't match ( DNA ).

We just took it away, and your lucky thats all we took.

..Macedonians are Greeks as we always were. Nobody can make us Bulgarians/Fyromians.

...of euros to lobby for negation of Macedonia. They are by virtue already defeated, since 11 million nation, is affarid of 2 million. It must be truth they are afaird of. Oh, bless!

How can one deny the existence of Macedonians?

The Macedonians have tried to play nicely for the past 17 years. Well enough is enough! Its time to get to the heart of this issue. If Balkan borders are coming to the agenda (see Kosovo case), then the book must be open for the Macedonian case. A little give and take - Greek style Opa!

The Greek government and their apologists world wide are running scared because the crux of the irrational "name dispute" and what they have been trying to hide for decades is finally coming to the fore. That is the denial of the rights of the large ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece and the refusal of successive Greek regimes to own up to the illegal expropriation of the property of Macedonians who were driven out of Greece by the monarchofascist forces during and after the civil war of 1946-49. Ethnic Greeks who fled during this period were allowed back into Greece in the early 1980s- including the fighters of the Democratic Army of Greece- under the Andreas Papandreou government,which also restored their property to them under laws which restricted the right of return and return of property to those who are "Greek by genus". To this very day the Greek government refuses entry to those Macedonians who fled the country as children in 1946-49, but has welcomed back the ethnic Greek child refugees. The motive is clear:to continue their policy of denationalization of the ethnic Macedonians and to maintain the fiction that that part of Macedonia (51% )which it annexed in 1913 has been "Greek for 4000 years". Bravo to Milososki. Face up to reality Greece and stop thinking you are all direct descendants of Alexander.

I came from zhelevo lerin . 1961 The greeks kill my aunt and my uncle .because they said we are macedonians NOT GRREK OR SERBS OR BOULGARIANS . Nobody was aloud to say makedonia .how come now the grrks are macedonian i dont think so .They took our land our history .and to this day they treat the people worst then HILTER My baba told one police man i was born macedonian and i will die macedonia i am 82 years old and i am not afraid from you kill my son so if you want kill me too i will never be greek . LONG LIVE MACEDONIA . HEY GREEKS THE WORLD KNOWS THE TRUTH YOU CANT LIE ANYMORE I HOPE GOD SOME DAY WILL PUNISH YOU FOR WHAT YOU DID TO THE MACEDONIAN PEOPLE IN THE AEGIAN MACEDONIA.

After reading many of the comments, I had to go have a drink to calm my nerves before responding. I have seen some amazing spin in my life but I cant believe the words I am reading here. To Mr. "DONE". You must be kidding the readers of this board and yourself if you believe the crap propaganda you are spewing. The horrific "ethnic cleansing" you speak of had nothing to do with eradicating a race (which doesnt exist) and everything to do with communist scabs. The same thing was going on in southern Greece. There were literally brothers killing brothers all over Greece during the civil war. The communists fled for their lives, most of them going north to YUGOSLAVIA, to live their UTOPIAN communist lifestyle. (We all know how that turned out). Greece went through hell, and because of the tenacity, forward thinking and freedom loving citizens, it was THE ONLY DEMOCRACY in the balkans. Greece has been on the right side of every major battle, and or debate since its independance from the turkish yolk. Now for the history lesson. Macedonia is NOT a country Nor are Macedonians some pure race of people. Macedonia is a geographical area of which over 50% lies within Greece, about 25% in Bulgaria, and smaller percentages in Serbia, Albania, and FYROM. The people living in Greek Macedonia are Macedonian Greeks, as the people living in Sparta are spartan Greeks, as the ones in Crete are Kritiki GREEKS ETC ETC ETC. The stupid argument that Greeks are African shows how incredibley ignorant you are. For thousands of years there have been Greeks living in modern day Italy, Egypt, Turkey, all over the Black Sea, etc. Because of wars, migration, economic circumstances, and ethnic cleansing the majority have come to modern day Greece to be with their own. By the way, Greece has had the least turmoil and unrest of all the nations in the balkans. Although we have had some problems, we have also had the most stability in the region by far. Most of any problems Greece has endured in recent history with its neighbors have been due to land grabs thrust upon it from every side. We thought that in this modern, civilized world this wouldnt happen any more. I guess some people are stuck in the ways of the 40's. Propaganda, Newly invented Nationalism. We might as well bring Tito and Hoxa back from the grave. They would feel right at home 60 years later. Tito would be so proud that the propaganda he invented 60 years ago (to grab land from Greece and have access to the Agean to dock his boat) was still planted and festering in the minds of the naive populous he had under his thumb!! Take notes, you might learn something!

You guys don't understand your own Greek government very well. In 1982 the Greek government stated any persons of GREEK ORIGIN from the Civil War can come back to Greece and reclaim their lands... while racistly leaving out the non-Greek Macedonians who participated in the Civil War in order to avoid giving them their land back. Today, their descendent's are denied access to Greece even to visit their ancestors graves! Miloski is right about this one.

Learn before you speak! Greece does claim that Turkey has committed a Pontic Genocide today and argues that sense Turkey denies the genocide, they cannot come into EU

It is amazing to view so many nationalistic comments from Greeks today, even though they have not done their research on the matter and in a typical manner try to show that Greeks were the victims. The Greeks find it a serious issue for Macedonia’s name to be talked about; well Macedonians find it a serious issue to talk about Greek Civil War and discriminatory laws. The Aegean Macedonians were forced out of their homes, as well as 28,000 Aegean Macedonian children. They were never allowed to return to their homes, and their descendents are also not allowed to return home. While their property was sold off to Pontic Greeks who today claim to be Greek Macedonian, they had to suffer knowing their parents or uncle or wife died in Greece and they couldn’t even attend the funeral. To Giorgio Nearchos, there is an ethnic group in republic of Macedonia who self-determinate as Macedonians (if you want to be friends, you’d accept the self-determination). To Pera, in 1982 a Greek law was passed to allow all Civil War refugees of Greek origin to return to Greece and reclaim their property. Notice “of Greek origin” effectively discriminating Macedonians and forcing them to identify as Greek if they ever want to live in their homelands. Miloski can’t compensate them because it was not the Macedonian government that cased any heartache to those Greek families; it was the Macedonians (fought for Civil Rights) and Greek communist vs Greek capitalist. It would be like asking Albania to compensate the Macedonian soldiers who died in the 2001 insurgency against Albanian rebels (foolish). To FY33… you’re argument is pathetic. These 28,000 MACEDONIANS did not identify as Greeks and there is footage of the children being given away to prevent any hardships from the Greek government. Please show me ANY evidence of your childish and immature statements.

If the Slavs want compensation for their refugees, then let's talk about compensating all the victims, i.e. the thousands (28,000) of Greek children abducted from their homes and raised in FYROM as Slav Macedonians, and not a word ever mentioned of their Greek origins. It’s unacceptable, inhumane and hypocritical how the Slavs perpetrated the same crime committed against them and other Christian communities during the Ottoman occupation. Secondly how about compensating Greece for the crimes committed by the Slavs living in Greece during the Bulgarian occupation in WWII. It is common knowledge that the Slavs accepted the Bulgarians with open arms and aided their campaign of terror, which was far harsher than the Nazi and Italian zones of occupation. A massive campaign of "Bulgarisation" was launched which saw all Greek officials (mayors, school-teachers, judges, lawyers, priests, gendarmes) deported, a universal ban placed on the use of the Greek language even on a private basis, the names of towns and places changed to the forms traditional in Bulgarian, land and housing expropriated and Bulgarian settlers introduced. By late 1941, more than 100,000 Greeks had been expelled from the Bulgarian occupation zone. In May 1943 deportment of Jews from the Bulgarian occupation zone began as well. By the end of the occupation an estimated 60,000 Greeks had perished. Thirdly how about compensating Greece for the ravages of the Greek civil war which brought further death and destruction to the Greek nation, as again it is common knowledge that the Slavic population of Northern Greece backed the Greek communists and towards the end of the war around half of the communist fighters were Slavic Macedonians. They enlisted in such large numbers because they were granted amnesty for their crimes during the Bulgarian occupation and promised certain “privelages” by the Greek communists who were desperate to secure more resources and man power to sustain their military campaign. The Slav Macedonians specifically feared reprisals from the Greek army for their collaboration with the occupying Bulgarian forces and therefore opted to join en masse the communist rebels. Conservative estimates place the number of casualties of the civil war at around 50,000 lives plus an equal number of injured and unaccounted for individuals. When the communists lost the war they all fled across the border, along with the Slavs who feared the wrath of the Greek army for their collaboration in WWII and for siding with the rebels. I think the Slavs should be exposed and brought to justice. The above crimes far outweigh any loss of property and in my opinion leave absolutely no options for right of return. The whole economy of FYROM would probably not be enough to compensate for the above.

Skopjans keep crying about history which they love perverting. But ignore the recent history of their violation of civil rights of Albanians. I love Makedonia it is a major and beautiful part of Greece full of Proud Greeks, it is a ridiculous joke that the Skopjans claim it is a Slavic region under occupation, it is equal to the Propaganda history which claims Jesus and Most presidents are skopjans. Get over it get a job and get a life, keep out of Greece it has a defined Border.

why don t the americans give the indians their land back hey fools

"...They also deny the proven fact that they are not the oginal Greeks. They would not accept their Asia-Minor- African ancestral background who migrated to the Balkans well after the Macedonians..." Assuming that you, personally, are part of the "original" Macedonians. Anyway, your comments are useless in a realworld political debate and only denigrate the honest people in Fyrom trying to make a living and get along with neighbouring states. It's easy for people like you, usually barbers of greater Toronto and plumbers in Melbourne, to live in a fantasy world. It must be difficult to have to bear that you are intellectually, diplomatically, politically and economically on the "short end" of this debate vis-a-vis descendants of "africans" to the Balkans. Silly arguments, I think you're doing "battle with the truth"

One of the comments earlier referred to Greece as the 'land of Democracy'. LOL preposterous. A country whose history since independence boasts a bloody civil war, military juntas, coup d'etats and counter-coup's can hardly be called democratic. And look at your recent leaders - who's who of recycled family 'dynasties' :) Uncle to nephew, granfather to father to son, father to daughter... It's worse than North Korea. 28 years after joining the EU and Greece is still the most corrupt nation amongst the original (pre-enlargement) member-states, according to Transparency International. Disgraceful! You should be ashamed for claiming the heritage of the ancient Greeks. Hands of Macedonia! Macedonia to the Macedonians!

Well, I never...!! Now they want their land back as well a name!! What next, a place in the EU?? Probably have a claim against the yiros, or tzadzik or even greek coffee! This is preposterous! I'm calling in the Duke of Winsor, immediately!

To all Greek friends.

it makes me laugh when i see a makedonski (slav macedonian) neighbour accusing greeks for nationalism, and signs his post as "MACEDON". You think that you are a descendant of Ancient macedonians? As far as i am concerned I dont think this for myself becouse too many years have passed, but I carry their heritage, becouse i speak their language. And the word MACEDON and its grammar meens something in our langouage . We dont deny your existance, we deny you the right to use our cultural heritage, in your own way, in order to create a national consciousness. Its too late to create one. We dont deny you the right to use the name macedonia, as your ancestors, (and so mine) live in macedonia so many years, but we deny you the reserved right to use macedonia. This name needs sharing! Slavomacedonia, Vardar macedonia, North Macedonia, Republic of Macedonski seem fine to me.

Greece and Greek macedonians have nothing to discuss with scopjans.History speaks for itself! Stop the talks now! WE have been fighting for democracy and freedom since ancient times! there is no point in talking to nazi collaborators...we r just wasting our time... we ve got as a nation more important things to do than talking to brain washed uneducated scopjan slavs!!

I agree with Done. If Macedonia means so much to Greeks, and if Macedonia (name) represents greeks why than Greece is not called Macedonia ?

"""I agree with Done. If Macedonia means so much to Greeks, and if Macedonia (name) represents greeks why than Greece is not called Macedonia?""" That is some GREAT logic well done

I just want to add - Maybe Milososki should mention that the "makedonski's" spread the Slavic culture and Language to all of todays Slavic Nations? Since that is what these people believe, why not? Ridiculous!!!

"Macedon" said - "The Aegean Macedonians were forced out of their homes, as well as 28,000 Aegean Macedonian children." As well as 28000 "Makedonski children"??? Is that what they've been teaching you in skopje land? sometimes these extreme propaganda's are too much to comprehend PLEASE READ THE LINK BELOW which talks about the 28000 children http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,811653-1,00.html

Then I guess Greece is to recieve Egypt, Turkey and all of Asia up until the Indus river...which form number do I have to complete to get the process started? This is further proof that FYROM's government is a comedy or errors.

Aplogies for the long post....! It's always interesting to see both sides arguing on such issues. Over the years I have heard ridiculous arguments from both sides... Apparently, Greeks had the opportunity to have a decent solution to the problem many years ago, had they accepted the usage of derivatives of the term "Macedonia" by FYROM. Obviously, they thought the rest of the world would be on their side and they decided to play it tough...(wrong!) Now, Greece has stepped back to discussing usages of the word "Macedonia" and its derivatives, but I am afraid that it is the FYROM side that plays it tough now...(also wrong!) This can take ages to resolve... On the issue of Macedonian Refugees, historical facts that happened half a century ago are not easy to touch on. It's near to impossible for Greeks to accept such a request on the simple basis that the next thing that will happen is that Albanians that were kicked from regions of Greece would make similar requests... Of course, noone can stop people from making such claims, but it will just not happen: * Greek-Cypriots will not get their homes back from Turkish-Cypriots. * Macedonians-"Fyromians" will not get their homes back from Greece. * Albanians will not get their homes back from Greeks. * Greeks will not get their homes back from Turkey. and so on... Also, who draws the line that sets the time where such requests/claims can be made? The borders of the neighbouring countries with Greece have been set quite some time ago and Greece will not accept such claims, regardless of whether they are right or wrong... I also find it a little hypocrytical to ask for a double citizenship for the Macedonian Refugees. Would these people that seem to hate Greeks so much find it appropriate to have the greek citizenship? I think Macedonias-FYROM play it hard because they have nothing to loose now; especially now that they have the (obvious) support of US. However, may I point out that US *entirely* failed to realise that Greece would indeed veto the NATO expansion... May I also point out that Macedonia should not seek to become a star on red-white flag, but a star on a blue-yellow flag... I hope the issue is resolved quickly, but I doubt it...

IF ONLY...

LOL! Thank you so much for the comical relief Mr Milisoski. I have decided that I will henceforth christen you as 'Comical Milisoski'. In many ways you remind me of 'Comical Charlie' from Iraq, and you bring to mind classic Black Adder episodes! You guys in FYROM are so far displaced from reality that you sometimes wonder whether its even worth commenting. More importantly, I wish I was a fly on the wall at the various capitals around the world to gauge the reaction from this latest 'contribution' by FYROM. It will be interesting to see how many more countries will move towards Greece's position after this latest incident. Mr Milisoski - keep up the 'good work'!

I am not Greek nor Macedonian. I have Greek relatives and Macedonian friends. I hear both sides of the story. I laugh to myself that two societies can argue over truly childish issues that make no real difference. If Macedonia (Skopje) was really making territorial claims for northern Greece it would only take about 2 hours for Greece to wipe Macedonia's military off the map. I figure the Greek politicians to be negotiating not for a name settlement but something else. I can only imagine it is $ or image. The Macedonians (Skopje) seem to have a fair claim to use the name (as the Greeks do to). For as long as any person in Skopje can remember everyone has called them Macedonian. Their neighboring countries, their families, the world for that matter. People in Greece are called Greeks, not Macedonian. So, give them a break that they want to be called "Macedonia". However, the politicians in Skopje seem to be children as well when it comes to negotiations. They want to be in the EU & NATO but they keep bringing issues into the debate that will certainly kill any solution. Reparations as a contigency with the name...come on! A referendum? I understand but you risk ending your ability to negotiate should the people vote "NO" to your only suggestion after 17 years. Macedonia also seems to forget that there isn't much incentive for Greece to negotiate. Not economically, not politically, not socially. Greece has had a great business in Skopje for years without reaching any agreement.

Nameless said: 'I think Macedonias-FYROM play it hard because they have nothing to loose now; especially now that they have the (obvious) support of US.' Good observation, but have you noticed a difference in US positioning on the whole issue since the Bucharest Summit? Although the US support has been strong and pro FYROM for some time, there has been a subtle change in language since the elections. The US has been pushing hard to find a solution to the name, and has even gone as far as publicly stating that it will recognise FYROM by its new name once the issue has been resolved. If you add the ambiguous position of the State Department questioning a 'Macedonian' language, then one can deduce that FYROM no longer has total US backing as it once might have had. Furthermore, i dont know for how much longer FYROM will have total unconditional US support, as America's possible new president (Obama) has already indicated, by signing a senate petition, that he supports Greece on this whole issue. My personal opinion on all this is that: 1) FYROM has lost the name issue; they will have to change their name if they want to intergrate with the rest of Europe. If not, they will be assimilated within Albania's borders. 2) FYROM's demand for a 'Macedonian' identity, language name and culture are also lost. When the country's name changes so too will the description of its citizens and it's language. The end result I see here is that the Greeks living in the Greek province of Macedonia will retain the right to call themselves 'Macedonians' as they have all these millenia. FYROMians will have a descriptor in front. ie Novamakedonjians, Slavomacedonians etc... Take care...

did any mention that these Slav communists people who fled in 1948 Greece to go to Yugoslavia were calling themselves Bulgars as at all the documents of the time was not mentioned any pseudomacedonian identity and that Tito baptised them to "Macedonians" in order not to call them Bulgars ?

Greek historiography claims that only the Macedonians are "Greek", but does not apply the same logic to all the other peoples who used the literary Greek language during certain periods, such as the Illyrians, Thracians, Bulgarians, Romans and others. As for the use of the Greek language by the Macedonian Royal House, it is known that it was adopted at a certain point in the development of the Macedonian state, but it was not always so! There is not ONE INSCRIPTION in the Greek language on the territory of Macedonia prior to the 5th C. BC. ie; before the period of partial adoption of Greek culture in Macedonia! Ancient inscriptions in Greek dating from long before the 5th C. BC. have been found on the territory where the ancient city states existed, and even Thrace, but there are NO SUCH INSCRIPTIONS TO BE FOUND SO FAR IN MACEDONIA! The evidence for this comes from Greek Historians, and further testimonies to this are found in the works of foreign historians!

you dont like my previous post? its to greek for your view?

We learned about the “Children refugees” from living with them. A children refugee was in my building, was a mother of a friend, was a father of a boyfriend. They were all around us and the told us their terrible stories. That’s how we learned about it. While the Greeks are made to believe that they don’t exist that we don’t exist that we’re some dirty faceless and nameless and soulless ‘slavs.’ Is there any country in the world that has expelled its kids? That has allowed its kids to go alone in the world, to be separated from his family and siblings and their home? Now the Greeks don’t want to talk about it. They can’t take it. How coward can they get? The Macedonian kids from Greece were sent away in the world alone. Luckily the world has helped, Poland, Macedonia, Hungary, Canada…The world has accepted the little orphaned children. Siblings have been separated and have grown up in different countries and orphanages. Many of the children have lost contact, many have reunited after decades. We know the people they’re real, flesh and blood, they can tell you their horrific stories. It can’t get any real then that. All Greeks denial, and insults, and attempts to discredit us, our history, and what we’ve gone through can do nothing. Because we’re here and many and unless the Greeks kill us all we’re not going to be shut up.

God Bless Macedonia and the Macedonians! We have suffered long enough at the hands of the Greek oppressers. See how they are panicking now that the truth behind the name issue has been brought out into the open. I'm of Macedonian descent from the Lerin region, proud of my loving, decent, honourable parents and will never identify myself as a Greek.

I am always amazed how the majority of people in this forum never sign their name. If you are so passionate about such issues, just step up and stand for yourself! And when I read some of the comments I read here, I wonder: is this really a debate to join what people such as Robert Schuman, Paul-Henri Spaak and Konrad Adenauer wanted to build? ANd let me just remind you, Schuman was from Lorraine, thus was born a German citizen to become Franch in 1918, then German again in 1941 and French in1945. Do you think it meant anything to him? He had the courrage to bypass those cleavages and internal struggle to raise the debate and help build something new. When I imagine you in front of your computer not even daring stating your name, I just realise how far backwards the European continent has gone. It is shameful of the EU not to accept Macedonia under its constitutional name!

Game on, not game over. Greece will have to explain In 1982 the Greek government stated any persons of GREEK ORIGIN from the Civil War can come back to Greece and reclaim their lands... while racistly leaving out the non-Greek Macedonians who participated in the Civil War in order to avoid giving them their land back. Racist law, democtaric country what do you think?

The issue of properties lost in after WWII's forced migrations (call them ethnic cleansing, political cleansing or whatever you want) is an issue in all the countries of Europe that have suffered of this. So you are not talking about nothing of typical Greek/Macedonian/GreekMacedonian/SlavMacedonian. In Italy too we have people arguing on whether Istria and Dalmatia were latin, illyrian, slav or german and tryng to get from archeological evidences if the borders are right or wrong, if Pula is Pola, Rijeka is Fiume, Split is Spalato or (also) Trieste is Trst (of course they are in the same time Pula AND Pola and so on). This is only stupid nationalism. but there are a lot of people, simple people, men and women now old even if they leave their homes as children, that have lost their properties (and a part of their hearts) on the other side of the border. To deal with their claims could be an act of justice and it didnt mean necessarily that the borders have to change. Today you can just walk trough the railway station square in Gorizia/Nova Gorica and pass from Italy to Slovenia or viceversa. Someone has cited Tyrol in a comment: please take a look to Tyrol and see the wanderful way italians and germans have found a solution for the problem that two nationalism (the italian and the german) two fascism (the italian and the german) and two wars (WWI and WWII) create. There is much more to do than howling against the other. And about the idea of closing the border (maybe together with Bulgaria and Serbia as someone of the greek friends wrote) I just wont you to know that in my city, Bari, every month we can see more and more truck with Macedonian/Fyrom plates that came and go trough Albania. Take note: the world is changing...

A brutal civil war was fought so many years ago, and what happened happened. Milososki should speak about giving rights to any minority in Greece, and getting the Greek government to accept the slav-Macedonians as a separate non-Bulgarian people. In exchange, they will compromise on the name. Compensation is totally out of the question. A civil war was fought over what will happen to Greece and especially Greek Macedonia. The War is over. Move on to something more useful.

Quentin is right: sign with your name. The apulian of the comment above is me Luigi Quaranta, from Bari, Apulia, Italy. And I want to put, together with Schumann Spaak and Adenauer, Alcide De Gasperi, born in Trento when the city was part of the Austrian Empire, member of the austrian parlament before WWI, then exiled (ok, not very far,in Vatican City) by the fascist regime, and after the WWII Prime minister of the democratic Italy and founder of the EU. It's said that Schumann, Adenauer and De Gasperi talked in german when they met.

DETSA BEGALTSI ISSUE. REWRITING HISTORY IN AN ETHNIC PURE BASIS There is a very interesting story for those of you who are funs of human psychology. During Greek civil war 1946-1949 there was a notion among greek royalists that it wasn’t actually a battle between pro-American right wing supporters with their national greek army and the left greek opposition with its democratic army of Greece but an deadly fight between “the entire greek nation and their slav opponents” respectively. It must be noticed also that at that time many of the now expatriates big maks were part of a coalition of progressive greeks who were fighting for a free, tolerant, democratic and socialistic Greece with intact its territorial borders whatever was the meaning of that. The battle was lost for the left opposition in 1949. Many people have suffered a lot from both sides. The communists in large numbers were obliged to leave Greece. The social and political backgroung of these terrible events now seems to be compeletely forgotten by some slav maks. They have forgot how many greeks had risked their lives for them We are now constantly being told by some slav maks about continuing “anti-macedonian” genocide in Greece. Funny to see that the slav macedonians in the diaspora once proud fighters of the greek anti-fascist resistance during WWII and members of the greek left opposition against the royalists have been brainwashed at a level to believe that the entire greek nation is against them. It seems that they are now the only living supporters of that silly notion of “greek nation against slavs” nature of greek civil war, introduced originally by late queen Fredericka and the now ex royal family of Greece. The general non-historical propaganda about slav macedonian genocide in Greece is a symptom of a ultranationalistic hysteria that makes those people sound like the greek ultranationalists they had been fighting in the past. Queen Fredericka would have been very proud of their metamorphosis Certainly the Greek law of 1982 should be changed after the name issue is resolved in a pragmatic and humanitarian basis for all the political refugees independently of ethnic background. I am suspicious that for some officials in Skopje the detsa begaltsi issue must never be resolved. It represents the cornerstone of a nationalistic identity, the final prove that dissociates greeks from slav macedonians not allowing any mixed identities that were so common in the past. It constitutes also the basis of a non historical propaganda not against some far right wing greeks but the entire greek nation and the basis of rewriting a pure ethnic one-eyed history where all the greeks are just a centuties' old enemy. This comment is dedicated to those who sacrificed their lives during greek civil war for a common future. They will never be forgotten

There is future in the past. Get on with it, solve the name issue and lets all live our lives as neighbours. There has been enough misery in the Balkans we do not need any more. Does the FRYOM government needs to wake up and help its people. Withn a 35% unemployment and with hard economic times ahead they should stop procrastinating and reach a solution.

If people want to sign their names to the posts, they can register on this site, thus, when they post, their e-mail addresses will appear instead of a pen name. Therefore, if you use your real name on your e-mail address, it will appear here by default. Otherwise, please don't sign with your names on normal posts, way too many malicious people on the Net; impersonations on this site is the least of your worries. Still just "Ringo". PS. Pressure Gruevski & Co. to reach an honorable compromise, stick an "Upper", for instance, before "Macedonia" and everything will fall into place. Greece and the Republic of xxxxxxx Macedonia will be the closest and brotherly of all SE Euro states if ill will, past and present, is overcome. The vast majority of Greeks want FYROM to enjoy absolute security and stability and a high level of prosperity. Push though, and you get pushed back.

"Stou koufou tin porta oso theleis vronta". You can knock all you want on a deaf man's door but it's of no use. Like you and others, I have made of what I thought to be some reasonable recommendations for a mutually accepted solution but so far there has been no answer forthcoming from the other side. Country: Gorna Makedonija Ethnicity, Languages: Slavomacedonian, Albanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Greek , etc. This or any similar solution solves a series of problems that the current constitutional name carries or implies. There is,thus, no monopolization of the name Macedonia which is a geographic region and not the national name for anybody and it puts the languages/culture issue in its proper perspective. Isn't modern "Macedonian" a language that is to a great extent intelligible by the Bulgarians? Don't most linguists consider it to be a Slavic tongue? If so, why are these people refusing to call themselves what they are? [A Slavic people who live in a smaller part of geographic Macedonia] Slavomacedonians live in Gorna Makedonija and other parts of the world. Bulgarian Makedonskis live primarily in Bulgaria etc and Greeks live in Greek Macedonia. It is very simple unless you are a people who wants to "steal" someone else's history and cultural symbols and have a bunch of "irredentist" and ludicrous claims against your neighbors or someone who "bites" the hand that feeds you!

I am sick and tired of watching you guys making claims about Greece and ancient Macedonia which are a bunch of manufactured lies. Please read some independent sources for a change. You owe it to yourselves and to your children whose future you are playing with. Wikipedia says the following [ you are welcome to check out the original sources quoted- Emphasis added ]: The Ancient Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient tribe which inhabited the alluvial plain around the rivers Haliacmon and lower Axius, north of the Mount Olympus in Greece.[1] Historians generally agree that the ancient Macedonians, whether they originally spoke a Greek dialect or a distinct language, came to belong to the Koine Greek speaking population in Hellenistic times. Whether the ancient Macedonians were ethnically Greeks themselves or were Hellenised continues to be debated by historians, linguists and lay people, although **most scholars agree that they were in fact Greek[2]**. The Macedonian Royal family known as the Argead dynasty claimed Greek descent and both Macedonian Kings and commoners, at least since Alexander I, were allowed in the Ancient Olympic Games, an athletic event in which only people of Greek origin participated[3][4]. Also, Following the archaeological discoveries of the 20th century, **most modern scholars now agree that the ancient Macedonians were in fact of Greek origin.[5]** Eugene N. Borza stated that the ancient Macedonians underwent ethnogenesis synthesizing Greek as well as Thraco-Illyrian cultural elements, though **considers them at the same time to have been perhaps proto-Greeks, originating from the same population pool that produced other Greek peoples.[6]** Walter M. Ellis believes that **the ancient Macedonians were Greeks, just like the modern.[7]** Eric Carlton mentions that modern scholars believe less or more that Macedonians were one group of many Dorian tribes that had made their way into Greece from the Balkans in successive waves.[8] Theodor Mommsen writes that the Macedonians proper on the lower course of the Haliacmon and the Axius, as far as the Strymon, were an originally Greek stock,[9] while David Sacks call them "a crude Greek nation".[10] Peter G. Tsouras states that the Macedonians were Greek in language and blood,[11] something that is supported by Philip Hughes as well.[12] There are several other modern historians that support the Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians. Stephen J. Bost describes them as "backward Greeks",[13] W. J. Woodhouse says that **Macedonia was settled by immigrants of Greek stock later to be called Macedonians.**[14] Systematic excavations at Aiani since 1983 have brought to light finds that attest the existence of an organised city from the 2nd millennium BC to 100 BC. The excavations have unearthed the oldest pieces of black and white pottery, characteristic of the tribes of northwest Greece, discovered so far. Found with Μycenaean shells, they can be dated with certainty to the 14th century BC. The findings also include **some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia, among them inscriptions bearing Greek names like Θέμιδα (Themida). The inscriptions demonstrate that the society of Upper Macedonia spoke and wrote Greek before the 5th century BC.[15]** How about that? The Ancient Macedonians were Greeks just like the modern and spoke and wrote Greek [ and not a Slavic language ]before the 5th century B.C. Wow! How many proofs do you need to see the light?

In answer to Romios who wrote: "They enlisted in such large numbers because they were granted amnesty for their crimes during the Bulgarian occupation and promised certain “privelages” by the Greek communists who were desperate to secure more resources and man power to sustain their military campaign. The Slav Macedonians specifically feared reprisals from the Greek army for their collaboration with the occupying Bulgarian forces and therefore opted to join en masse the communist rebels." The certain "privilages" promised to the Macedonians by the Greek communists was a Unified and Autonomous Macedonia within a Communist Balkan Federation. The vast majority of Macedonians that joined to fight with the Greek Communists did not care about communist ideology nor anything about reprisals but wanted to fight to overthrow the repressive Greek yolk. Labeling all those Macedonian fighters as collaboartors and saying that they only joined the Greek communists to avoid Greek reprisals is trying to hide the real reason why Macxedonians fought along side the Greek communist in such large numbers. Any logically thinking person will conclude that is unlikely that the few right leaning collaborators would become left leaning communists overnight. Despite what they teach in Greek schools, the fact is that Civil War in Greece for the Greek Communists was classical proleterian struggle against capitalism, but for the Macedonians who joined the Greek communists was a fight the freedom for the Macedonians from the Greek oppressors. Papandreou's law of 1982 restored citizenship and full compensation and right of return to all those "communist fighters" and refugees that were "to genos Ellines" ie: "of genus Greek or of Greek origin". That was purposefully drafted in that manner to force any Macedonian to declare themselves Greek before being alowed back into their place of birth in Greece if they wished to rejoin families.

In answer to Romios who wrote: "They enlisted in such large numbers because they were granted amnesty for their crimes during the Bulgarian occupation and promised certain “privelages” by the Greek communists who were desperate to secure more resources and man power to sustain their military campaign. The Slav Macedonians specifically feared reprisals from the Greek army for their collaboration with the occupying Bulgarian forces and therefore opted to join en masse the communist rebels." The certain "privilages" promised to the Macedonians by the Greek communists was a Unified and Autonomous Macedonia within a Communist Balkan Federation. The vast majority of Macedonians that joined to fight with the Greek Communists did not care about communist ideology nor anything about reprisals but wanted to fight to overthrow the repressive Greek yolk. Labeling all those Macedonian fighters as collaboartors and saying that they only joined the Greek communists to avoid Greek reprisals is trying to hide the real reason why Macxedonians fought along side the Greek communist in such large numbers. Any logically thinking person (and there are not many in the forum) will conclude that is unlikely that the few right leaning collaborators would become left leaning communists overnight. Despite what they teach in Greek schools, the fact is that Civil War in Greece for the Greek Communists was classical proleterian struggle against capitalism, but for the Macedonians who joined the Greek communists was a fight the freedom for the Macedonians from the Greek oppressors. Papandreou's law of 1982 restored citizenship and full compensation and right of return to all those "communist fighters" and refugees that were "to genos Ellines" ie: "of genus Greek or of Greek origin". That was purposefully drafted in that manner to force any Macedonian to declare themselves Greek before being alowed back into their place of birth in Greece to rejoin families.

whatever the claims and the role the slavmacedonians played during 2nd WW and greek civil war the fact is that the greek communists along with the slavs lost the war ,and thanks be to God, democracy prevailed in Greece. They had the chance ,back then ,to surrender lay down their weapons and live peacefully in Greece. After the brutal crimes they committed towards the Greek poppulation they chose not to! They chose a new life which suited their ideology... now they will have to live with their choice! Greek macedonians back then fought for their ideals,democracy, heritage, traditions, and they won what they deserved! Traitors, nazi collaborators,old communists believing in an autonomous socialist macedonia have no place in Greece!

My grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles were among those that were forced to flee the country during the civil war. Children were separated from their parents and my parents in particular spent several of their childhood years in orphanages in Romania before being reunited with their parents in Poland. They were farmers, not soldiers. You can not blame them for wanting back the land that they worked over and took care of for generation after generation. My parents villages are now all abandoned and crumbling ruins. What is there left to return to them? Compassion and dignity seem to be the most valuable thing Greece could give the refugees. Beyond the sweeping generalizations I've read here (and elsewhere), and beyond political rhetoric, no one can deny the tragedy that befell all of these families.