New Macedonia Name Proposal 'Soon'

There is a very interesting story for those of you who are funs of human psychology. During Greek civil war 1946-1949 there was a notion among greek royalists that it wasn’t actually a battle between pro-American right wing supporters with their national greek army and the left greek opposition with its democratic army of Greece but an deadly fight between “the entire greek nation and their slav opponents” respectively. It must be noticed also that at that time many of the now expatriates big maks were part of a coalition of progressive greeks who were fighting for a free, tolerant, democratic and socialistic Greece with intact its territorial borders whatever was the meaning of that. The battle was lost for the left opposition in 1949. Many people have suffered a lot from both sides. The communists in large numbers were obliged to leave Greece. I won’t mention now the separatist propaganda of some but not all of the slav macedonians at that time because this not my point here. And now we are constantly being told by some slav maks about continuing “anti-macedonian” genocide in Greece. Funny to see that the slav macedonians in the diaspora once proud fighters of the greek anti-fascist resistance during WWII and members of the greek left opposition against the royalists have been brainwashed at a level to believe that the entire greek nation is against them. It seems that they are now the only living supporters of that silly notion of “greek nation against slavs” nature of greek civil war, introduced originally by late queen Fredericka and the now ex royal family of Greece. Your general non-historical propaganda is just ultranationalistic hysteria that makes you sound like the greek ultranationalists you had been fighting in the past. Queen Fredericka would have been very proud of your metamorphosis

Under the patronage of Queen Frederica 20.000-30.000 Macedonian slav children were expelled from Greece, and were separated from their parents.They never saw them again, because their parents were killed by the Greek Army. Those children grew up in orphanages in Eastern and Central Europe. They, as you might image, are still alive and have not been able to return to their houses in Greece because they refuse to declare them selves Greek. How do you explain this xenophobia? Why can't they return to their old houses, what is your opinion redgreek?

I can't believe how easily this guy Gruevski puts his people on... It is impossible to recognize a "Macedonian" ethnicity, a "Macedonian" language or whatever his mind may come up with. States recognize states not ethnicities nor languages. How do you people imagine it could be? We (Greece), the Security Council and the rest of the world will recognize "Upper Macedonia" and then write on a piece of paper ".... But we recognize Macedonian ethnicity and language"? Your label when your team comes out at the Olympic Games for instance will show "Vardarska Macedonia" and underneath "... Macedonian ethnicity, Macedonian language and blah, blah.."! Can't you see that this is a freakin joke? If you wanna preserve your illusion stand firm and face the music (no accession to EU and NATO, poverty and final dismanteling) otherwise you are just kidding yourselves. Good luck you'll need it

Are the Greeks who were forcibly expelled from Turkey (Asia minor and Istanbul), and from the ilegal occupation of Cyprus allowed to return and claim their homes and property?? Not much chance of that happening...So now you have your answere.

ZL I always respect your opinion regardless of my agreement or not with it. It seems that once again NAMES MEAN A LOT. You said: “Under the patronage of Queen Frederica 20.000-30.000 Macedonian slav children were expelled from Greece” Actually it was under the protection of another greek army “The Democratic army of Greece” that those innocent children greek and macedonian slav saved their lives during greek civil war. You said: “their parents were killed by the Greek Army” Actually many greek and macedonian slavs communists, fighters and parents were killed by the pro-royalist National greek army. You said: “Those children grew up in orphanages in Eastern and Central Europe” . Together with many other greek children You know very well that this big mak propaganda about greek “anti macedonian” “genocide” is far older than 1982 when the greek communists were finally allowed to return to Greece after 33 years in exile and the rest not. In my opinion everybody should be allowed to return to Greece It seems again that names are much more important than anyone can think of.

Self determination is a universal right. Greece is breaking international law. Its that simple. If Greece has a problem, have a name for bilateral use with Greece only. While the rest of the world will use Macedonia. That is what you call common sense, my friends.

If you truly want to follow rules then Greece has no business meddling with another country's name. Since the situation is such and with a name change of a country, you diminish their right of self-determination, measures need to take place that will assure the identity and language of the people is not in any way compromised. Such as the name of the people and language. If there are no clauses regarding the name of the people in the country who's name has changed, then assumptions will be made, wrong ones. Legal agreements are best made when all positions are detailed and well explained to remove any misunderstanding. The Macedonian language and ethnicity should be mentioned as part of the agreement as to not have an issue of implied meaning which would later have to be settled in court. The best legal contracts are made when all areas are covered as to not confuse parties because of being vague. So no, it's not a joke. It's protection against a country which obviously has no respect for democratic principles. Oh, and if states don't recognize languages and ethnicity, who does? You? The people? You will never call us Macedonians, even it's in the agreement. And if no one has to recognize them, then stop calling us "skopians, fyromians" and so on, since we already have a name!

DEAR CONTRIBUTORS, BEFORE 1944 THERE WERE NO "MAKEDONSKI" AND "MAKEDONIYA" -THERE WAS ONLY A BULGARIAN SPEAKING GROUP OF PEOPLE IN NORTHERN GREECE THAT EITHER SIDED WITH THE NAZIS OR THE COMMUNIST PARTIZANS AND THEY BOTH LOST. TODAY THE REMNANTS AND DESCENDANTS OF THE POPULATION OF THE YUGOSLAV SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF "MAKEDONIYA" ARE ASKED BY GREECE TO CHANGE THEIR COUNTRY'S NAME TO A "GORNYA","NORTH" OR "VARDARSKA" OR "NOVA" MAKEDONIYA AS INHABITANTS OF A CERTAIN GEOGRAPHIC PART OF THE GREATER AREA OF MACEDONIA. AS FAR AS GREECE IS CONCERNED THERE IS NO "MAKEDONSKI" NATIONALITY OR LANGUAGE. THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS WAS A DORIC GREEK TRIBE THAT WAS ASSIMILATED WITH THE REST OF THE GREEKS BY THE TIME OF THE EARLY BYZANTINE TIMES. IN REALITY EXCEPT FOR THE ALBANIANS AND THE ROMA, THERE IS NO ANTHROPOLOGICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE INHABITANTS OF FYROM AND AND THE GREEKS LIVING FURTHER SOUTH. THE FIRST WERE MADE TO BELIEVE DURING THE PAST 64 YEARS THAT THEY ARE DISTINCT "MAKEDONSKI" PEOPLE WITH THEIR SEPARATE LANGUAGE AND CULTURE AND THE GREEKS WERE TAUGHT THAT THEIR NORTHERN NEIGHBOURS ARE "SLAVOMACEDONIANS" SPEAKING BULGARIAN. IN REALITY THEIR IS NO DIFFERENCE EXCEPT THE LANGUAGE AS FOOD,CUSTOMS, MUSIC ETC IS THE SAME. BUT IF FYROM INSISTS, THEN THEY SHOULD ACCEPT A COMPOSITE NAME FOR THEIR COUNTRY AND A COMPOSITE DEFINITION OF THEIR "NATIONALITY" AND "LANGUAGE" IN CYRILLIC. NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH MAKEDONIA-MACEDONIA WHICH IS SYNONYMOUS TO GREECE, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH MACEDONIAN HISTORY AND LANGUAGE WHICH IS ALSO GREEK. ANY OTHER POSITION BY FYROM,AS ALL ITS HISTORY SINCE 1944 CLEARLY SHOWS, IS NOTHING BUT A CONSISTENT CAMPAIGN TO EXPAND AND INCORPORATE GREEK LANDS THAT DID NOT BECAME GREEK IN 1913-THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION THERE WAS ALWAYS GREEK AND IT CHANGED A BIT AFTER MASSIVE IMMIGRATION OF GREEKS AWAY DUE TO THE OTTOMAN OPRESSION IN THE 18TH CENTURY AND AFTER OTTOMAN MASSACRES DURING THE 19TH-AFTER THE GREEK REVOLUTION OF 1821. BY EARLY 20TH CENTURY THE BULGARIAN SPEAKING INHABITANTS OF OTTOMAN MACEDONIA BACK THEN TRIED UNSUCCESSFULLY TO FORCE THE REST OF THE POPULATION TO ALIGN ITSELF WITH THE EXARCHATE AND THE BULGARIAN GOVERNMENT IN SOFIA. IN OTHER WORDS BULGARIAN SPEAKERS STARTED THEIR CAMPAIGN OF TERROR FIRST AS SOON AS THE BULGARIAN EXARCHATE WAS ESTABLISHED BY THE KINGDOM OF BULGARIA AND THEY CONTINUED TILL 1944 AND BY NOW THERE IS NO CONCRETE PROOF THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO STOP. THAT IS WHY THEY SHOULD ACCEPT A NEW COMPOSITE NAME FOR THEIR COUNTRY, THEIR NATIONALITY AND LANGUAGE. OTHERWISE THEY WILL LOSE AGAIN BUT THIS TIME EVERYTHING AND THEY WILL DISSAPEAR FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH FOR GOOD.

redgreek - Well I certainly don't disagree with big parts of what you say, but are you not overlooking an even more recent part of Greek history? Successive Greek governments had no problem throwing thier lots in with Milosevic, spitting at the collective institutions they now demand special favours from. They had no problems in indulging the reckless, 'Macedonia is Greece,' and, 'Common border with Serbia,' crowds. They had no problems plotting with Milosevic about annexation through irridentist sentiment! How about that for nationalism? None of this is to excuse the more reckless aspects of Macedonian nationalism - far from it. But to talk about hysterical ultranationalism as though the pathology that has infected the current Greek is qualitatively different is short-sighted. Being fair, I suspect that you yourself were probably not a big Milosevic fan, but the same can not be said for the bulk of the Greek citizenry. For what it's worth, I think that your first comment actually touches well on the real idiocy here. Macedonians and Greeks have far more in common than all the hot air and bluster suggests. That this jingoistic fluff has got this far is a poor reflection on both countries, caused largely by the awful politicians both have put in power. The idea that there are centuries old forces driving the two apart is fanciful and just plain wrong.

All the Greek chidlern were allowed to go back, because they were, well, Greek. They had no problem declaring them selves Greek. But the Macedonian ones were deined entrance, and until today they still can not go back to see their loved ones. The Greek state would not let them in unless they declare them selves Greek. Do you know, when I applied for a visa to Greece, they had to chek where my gardn parents were born and what they did, and if my parents have relations to Greece 1948 era? I had to submit documents claiming I had no relation with the Greek state in order to be granted a visa, and that was in the late 90s. DOnt you think it is a little too much? Names are not important. It is what you make out of it. And Greece bit more than it can chew on this one. You have got to agree with me, something is rotten in the way the Greek state deals with the issue, especially the bulling part.

I'm sick and tired of this "right to self-determination" argument. You cannot self-determine under someone else's name, and the main purpose of that self-determination is to usurp both land and history of your neighbour. Macedonian = a subset of ethnic Greeks. (always has been that way) That's why it is impossible for this Slavonic minority in Greece to be known as simply "Macedonian". You are SLAV-Macedonians at best. (Really just West Bulgarians/Shopi/Torlaks though).

My friend I will give you a present tonite! I will let you know what the deal is behind all this "name row" so you stop fooling yourself believing that you actually have a chance to save face. All the cr@p about history, Alexander the Great, Philip, the ancient Macedonia and what Greece did during the 40s are totally irrelevant! I can't believe there are so many people arguing about it not being able to read between the lines. So... We have a difference which is your name correct? As anyone with brain can see, we will make you use an adjective. Why? Lets suppose you are called "upper Macedonians"... But, but, Wait a minute!!!!... If you are the "upper Macedonians" who are the "Macedonians" to whom the entire history refers to? Lemme guess... The Greeks! Second catch... Any negotiation is 95% settled by the partie who assembles the agenda. And who set the agenda here?.... Oooops! The Greeks again because we are the strong partie. We would like to talk about the name which is going to be one for every use. Ethnicity, language, symbols etc. are off the table (that is why we would like to call this "negotiation" and not "treaty"). That means that we will not make concessions for matters that are not to be negotiated. Gruevski is trying (hopelessly if you check out Nimetz' words) to change the agenda... Too little too late! Now we have already won in NATO, we will win at the EU so that is a lost cause! What is your other option? Not to negotiate? That's even worse... Without any international integration, without having your northern borders clearly marked and with 40% of your population coming from another nation that will lead you to civil war and collapse. You can collapse as the "republic of Macedonia" if you like! It wiil mean the same to Greece. The argument of "self determination" is so poetic yet shallow! My answer to that is... You can call yourselves however you like like th UN dictates as long as we make up the sum of names to pick from. And that is already done. Once again... Good luck!

well we can use the name Republic of Macedonia with the 126 countries that recognise us by that name and the rest will just have to deal with it.

So the so called greek anti-macedonian genocide actually happened but after 1982? Has any of your ex-yugo friends noticed anything?

Sorry to ask a stupid question Dara but what exactly "Macedonia is Greece" means according to you? 1.the greek macedonia (the only original according to greeks) is greek.So no irredentism 2.the whole geographic area of macedonia is greek.so incorporation of the FYROMacedonia in Greece 3.The FYROMacedonia is greek.prepare yourself for war I can assure you that even back in 1992 apart from a trivial far wing fraction noone in Grece really considered 2 or 3 as options Greece has been respecting the integrity of FYROMacedonia under internationally accepted borders (yes those of Bucharest Convention of 1913) much more than others. This misunderstanding showes clearly how much a modifier like republic of (?) Macedonia is desperately needed.

Redgreek has brought up an interesting point, about the "myths" and "propaganda" during the time of the Greek civil war. ZL refers to the repatriation of the Greek communists and their dependents following the 1982 law, sans the non-Greek in genus individuals (actually a flow of political refugees back to Greece had begun before 1982 but the specific law acted as a general amnesty). Btw, the "refugee children" were evacuated by the communist side to Yugoslavia and beyond, the nationalist side in Athens howled over this 'operation' all the way up to the UNSC and even held protests and church services to highlight what it called the "paidomazoma", it's all on the Internet. This is but one (important) facet of currently soured Gr-Mk relations that will be solved, amicably, *only* after the name issue and via unforced amendments to Greek law. Even if it wanted to, which it definitely doesn't, Athens would not pay compensation and reparations because it would probably cause a cataclysmic reaction by half of its EU partners, i.e. Czech Republic, Poland, the Baltic States, France, Romania etc. Please, simply look up the standard applied to the "Sudetan Germans" issue. Real or perceived enemy combatants and their dependents displaced during and immediately after WWII have no redress in post-war and post-Cold war Europe. The continent has lived with is status quo since then, and it is time for Slav Mak diaspora to finally comprehend this. Look at the "glass" differently for a minute, a name issue resolution should be considered as an impetus to reach a humanitarian resolution for the refugee children. geia

Pando – Thank you for your reply. ‘Macedonia is Greece’ and ‘Common Border with Serbia’ (Koina Sinora me ti Servia) were chants that could be heard at the mass jingoistic rallies that were organised throughout Greece in the period 1991-1995. A description and pictures of these can be found in the book Unholy Alliance by Takis Michas, page 48. In 1993 a crowd of 100,000 gathered in Thessaloniki in full nationalist mode chanting those slogans. It was also used as a short-hand within Greek government for the objectives of the axis it formed with Belgrade that went as far, in 1995, as the Greek security services actively providing Milosevic with NATO secrets. Michas again provides sources for this at p38 of his book, a man named as Aris Mousionis who was a direct link between the countries. The Dutch government report into Srebrenica contains a claim that at some stage in 1995 it became NATO practice not to pass information to Greece for fear of it being passed on. The objectives of the Athens-Belgrade axis were clear – the annexation of the independent state of Macedonia and the denial of the creation of a state in the teeth of world opinion. This is fleshed out in the book Behind Closed Doors by Alexandros Tarkas. This provides an account (confirmed by the Greek foreign Ministry) of meetings between Milosevic and the Greek Government about how to annex Serbia into their countries. This account suggests that irredentist sentiment could be whipped up by Greece and Serbia. All this from the country that now accuses others of posing a territorial threat! To say that Greece has always respected the borders of Macedonia is simply not borne out by evidence and the actions from the hyper nationalist governments that represented Greece through out the 1990s and the populations that night after night chanted jingoist slogans demanding war. Indeed, such was the threat from Greece to Macedonian borders that Greek politicians actively denied the existence of such a state even after referendum. Samaras once sternly rebuked the Turkish government (a NATO ally) for inviting to a meeting a representative, ‘of the ghost of the non-existent Macedonian nation.’ (quoted by Michas p44). This denial went as far as a refusal on the part of the Greeks to send a representative to a holocaust memorial because a Macedonian flag was displayed. It is an interesting aside to note that one member of the Greek government that was so willing to throw its lot in with Milosevic, bust sanctions and plot with him was Dora Bakoyannis who was culture minister between 1991-1993. This is the woman who now claims that Greece is threatened. A level of shame that would not be accepted here in Britain. I can assure you pando that although much of Greek society will not mention its alliance with Serbia in polite company, it went an awful lot further than a trivial war faction in 1992. Indeed, Greek volunteers were at Srebrenica and as far as I am aware the Greek government still refuses to investigate whether its citizens committed crimes. To me, ‘Macedonia is Greece,’ is the very reification of the pathology of the hyper jingoism that gripped Greece in the 1990s to the point that it was prepared to foment regional war, plot with NATO enemies to invade a sovereign country and spit in the face of allies. To me ‘Macedonia is Greece’ is the very symbol of the rank hypocrisy and jingoist pathology that the Greek government brings to this issue. Many other countries would display some level of contrition, but of course that pathology of Greek jingoism does not do shame. This is what ‘Macedonia is Greece’ as a slogan means to me – a shameless Greece totally unable to modify its hate. There is no case of a geographical identifier here – none whatsoever. Out of interest pando – what was your take on the Greek government's policy of supporting Milosevic in the 1990s? What does 'Macedonia is Greece' mean to you?

"the non-Greek in genus individuals" - what does that mean Ringo? And considering your high level of education (as you demonstrate on this forum),could you please give us examples of who and when used this similar formulation of "citizenship by genus". Please explain, the floor is yours. Best

Seriously, how can the international community even take seriously the irratic greek claims that "Macedonia implies territorial claims on the northern provinces." Does Greece know how many places on earth have the same name? Obviously they need to upgrade their research tools from antiquity 'cuz there's no other way to explain this mess.

who "macedonia" belong have to see in the future...

ZL, the "Greek by genus" formula was employed by the new socialist government of A. Papandreou in 1982 to prevent the repatriation, specifically, of Slav Mak communist army combatants, sympathisers, and their dependents, who fled during the Greek civil war. But, I suspect you knew that already. Unfortunately, this practise, regardless of the legal acrobatics, is not unique for Greece in the post-WWII political status quo in Europe, again I remind of the displaced Sudaten Germans and their status in ex-Czechoslovakia. A thorny modern-day example is the ethnic Russian community of Latvia, which is/was deprived of full citizenship status. Looking at this issue in a clear 2008 context, and as I've said numerous times before on this very good site, the issue of repatriation of the "refugee children" and others should be *amicably* resolved *after* the very current and nagging "name issue". Additionally, it would have to be resolved unilaterally by Greece via Parliamentary legislation, and not presidential decree. It will certainly *not* be resolved or even negotiated bilaterally with the RoM side, which acquired sovereignty 42 years after the mass flight of a large portion of the Slav Mak community in (western Greek) Macedonia. This is, primarily, a humanitarian issue. Again, I would ask all to convey this fact everywhere, especially to a handful of irresponsible "Big Mac" Internet sites catering to the Diaspora: There is no precedent, and none is forthcoming or foreseen, for reparations and compensation of ethnic communities accused of "perceived or real" collaboration with the losing sides during WWII and its immediate aftermath. There's not one case that anyone can point to as even hinting at overturning this status quo, no ECHR, no Int'l Court, no final adjudication in any euro national court system. Case in point, Germany currently refuses to even acknowledge recent Greek court ruling ordering reparations for the kin of *executed civilians*, and this is by the pre-eminent WWII aggressor. Finally, ethnic Slav Maks that left Greece in the 1950s and 1960s may have lost their citizenship via the now repealed Article 19 of the constitution, a repeal, however, that does not have retroactive effect. This was primarily aimed at the ethnic Turks who left western Thrace for Turkey and Europe for long periods of time, but it may also affect a few Makos. So, there you have, the floor is again yours. Before concluding, I would kindly urge all free-thinkers on any side of this argument to consider the ill-will, veiled irredentism and inexcusable immaturity shown by Mr. Gruevski and his merry coterie of VMRO extremists since 2006. It did not have to come to this, but in his effort to "humiliate" WWII victor Greece, to "scratch old wounds" and to play "lap dog" to the Bush administration, he inadvertantly "turned the tables" against his own FYROM side. everyone stay cool

Ringo, I'm interested to hear your take on how or why 124 countries have officially recognised Macedonia? (a further 2 pending recognitions) It seems clear the Macedonian government has got there foot in the door already!? Furthermore, they've always enjoyed the support from Russia, UK, China and US, whom are all permanent UN members. Ever asked yourself, why bother?

John said: "Self determination is a universal right.Greece is breaking international law. Its that simple." My question to you John is... "self determination" does not apply for Macedonians in Greece? I'm Macedonian and I have nothing to do with FYROMian/Slavic citizeship or heritage. Why do I have to accept that by your "freedom" to choose whatever you want as a "name"..... I loose my freedom to use the term "Macedonian" for me? I hope you understand that if your name will be "Macedonians" and I want to show that I have no genetic/cultural etc. relations with you.. I must change the name Macedonian that I and my ancestors used to have.. right? So, as you understand, your "freedom" becomes my "slavery". Ok now, since you're no more than 1,3 million people and a newborn ethnicity, and since we're 2,5 million people and older ethnicity.... I believe that majority rules in a democratic formula.. The newcomers "Macedonians" (you), must choose something different from the "old dogs" Macedonians(us). Its that simple.

Guys, If you already have decided to post 1 out of my 10 posts...as you do until now, please let me know so as I dont loose my time writing them and reading your site. I understand your sympathy for Fyrom... but you should let all the opinions free to be expressed. Even if they're negative for Fyrom. Thank you.

1. The name Macedonia comes from the ancient Dorian Greeks, who were called "Macedni".and entered the geographical area of Macedonia at about 1100 B.C., long before any Slavic population appeared in that part of the world. 2. The ancient Macedonian capital was Pella in Northern Greece (nothing to do with Slavic Skopje). 3. The language of the Ancient Macedonians was the Koine Greek dialect,which was standardised as the language of formal discourse and official communication by the 4th century BC. As the allied Greek states under the leadership of Alexander the Great conquered and colonised the known world, their newly formed common Greek dialect was spoken from Egypt to the fringes of India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek 4. All inscriptions, including coins, tombstones, etc found in Macedonia dating from before the advent of the Romans are Greek, as are the names of the people and their gods. http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/coins/macedonia.html 5. The name ALEXANDER (Alexandros) derives from the Greek words "alexo" (to repel, send away) and "anir" (man; genitive case "andros"), and means "he who repels (inimical) men, wards them off". 6. Alexander's father was Philip II of Macedon. The name Philip is produced from the prefix Philo (in Greek meaning "friend of")and the word "hippos" (meaning "horse") - he who loves horses. 7. Alexander's half sister had a Greek name, Thessalonike ("victory of the Thessalians"), as did his famed horse, Bucephalus ("ox-head"). 8. Alexander the Great and his teacher, Aristotle, were of course Greek and spoke Greek. 9. Ancient Macedonians competed in the ancient Olympic Games. Only Greeks could compete in these games. Early Macedonian participants include Archelaus. (Olympics, Pythians 408 BC) and Philip II (Olympics 356 BC, 352 BC and 348 BC). Amyntas III in 371 BC took also part in a Panhellenic congress, concerning Amphipolis. From the age of Perdiccas III 365 BC onwards, Macedonian participation in Panhellenic Games and Festivals became common. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Macedonians#Athletes 10. The ancient Macedonian kingdom ceased to exist in 168 B.C., when it was conquered by the Romans. The name Macedonia, however, survived in Roman and Byzantine times - as did the names of most other parts of the ancient Greek world - as a name for various administrative units not necessarily overlapping with ancient Macedonia. The borders of the Macedonia region were reshaped over time and were only most recently standardized to include present-day FYROM in the later Ottoman period. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HistMac.gif 11. Slavic tribes migrated to the region from the territories of modern Belarus, Poland, European Russia and Ukraine during the 6th century A.D., 800 years after Alexander the Great lived. 12. These Slavs spoke a different language, settled in a region that was largely outside the territory of ancient Macedonia, and were in no way related to Alexander the Great or the Ancient Greek civilization. 13. A part of the region's Slav population began using the regional Macedonian name as their ethnic name towards the latter part of the 19th and early 20th century, based on the borders of the Ottoman-era Macedonia province. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HistMac.gif 14. Following the Balkan wars of the early 20th century (1912-14), the territory of the present-day Macedonia region was divided: 51.6% retained by Greece; 38.3% parceled to Yugoslavia; 10.1% parceled to Bulgaria. 15. During World War II, Yugoslavia's Marshal Tito established Western or "Vardar" Macedonia as one of Yugoslavia's six republics, calling it simply "Macedonia". Before World War II the area was referred to as VARDARSKA. 16. With the appropriation of the name "Macedonia", Tito also created an artificial language (Slavic in origin, based on West Bulgarian dialects) which was named "Macedonian", whose grammar was developed by Krume Kepeski in 1944 and later codified by Blaze Koneski. The objective was territorial expansionism for Yugoslavia. 17. Tito rewrote history by using foibles and propaganda to distort the integrity and heritage of the region. It was a historical irony that this very name was eventually chosen for an independent republic (FYROM) that has no connection to the ancient Macedonians and whose territory, in its vast majority, lies outside the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. IDENTITY THEFT IS A CRIME. The Slavs should use the name VARDARSKA for their country... We've had enough of this joke! Case in point, with Resolution 356, more than 100 members of the US House of Representatives urge the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to retract "hostile activities or propaganda" - namely its attempts to falsify history and claim Greece's heritage as its own. Examples of FYROM's "hostile activities and propaganda" mentioned in the resolution include the renaming of the Slavic country's main airport to "Alexander the Great", creating maps for school and military textbooks showing a "Greater Macedonia" that reaches well into Greece and Bulgaria and teaching school children that parts of Greece, including the Greek region of Macedonia, are rightfully part of FYROM.

I made some interesting comments in other parts of these forums but nobody from the other side is willing to give me an honest answer. What is wrong with a name like Northern Macedonia and calling the language what it is: Slavomacedonian. This takes care of the Greek concerns and solves the problems that some of the Albanians may have. Country: Gorna Makedonjia Languages,Ethnicity: Slavomacedonian , Albanian , etc. No confusion, no irredentism, no history stealing. Bulgarian and Greek Macedonia go on living as integral parts of two distinct states. No name monopolization. Case closed.

is this not absurdly ? I mean why not in this same way to find new name for Greece like New Greece or Down Greece

You should be very humble when you bring the ancestral land of Democracy in your mouth. My country is not a match for you. We helped you get rid of Ottoman oppression. You are not Makedones you are not Hellenes, you are Vardarskans!

Dara thanks for your reply. There 2 very different issues here that you are unsuccessfully trying to combine. The support of various greek governments to the serbian state for many years is a fact.It had nothing to do with hostility against Croats, Bosnians or support in ethnic cleansing. It was based in traditional estimations of allies equilibrium in the balkans one century old. You seem to forget that Greece and Serbia (and later Yugoslavia)have been the main western allies in the region for a century,during WWI and WWII and the basic pro-status quo forces. You seem also to overlook that Milosevic was considered a reliable partner of west diplomacy and especially the US (Dayton treaty)at that time and for many years till the Cosovo crisis. The macedonian issue is a totally different thing.It has a history 150 years old and many aspects not fully understood by people not familiar with the history of the balkans. I insist on that Greece has been a pro-status-quo force.It has been respecting Bucharest treaty borders in Balkans for a century and its policy has never changed. So it is only speculation that another pro-war policy against FYROM was seriously considered as an option.Especially after the illegal turkish invasion in 1974 and ocuppation of 40% of Cyprus under the allowance of british policy Greece became even stronger than in the past supporter of international law and territorial integrity of all in the region. You seem also to overlook that the greek government was among the firsts or the first to declare its support to the legal government of FYROMacedonia during 2001 conflict with Albanians and the territorial integrity and unity of that country. I am an ethnic macedonian with greek national consiousness.I live in Macedonia of Greece. I think my right for self-determination is seriously violated because of the monopolization of the name macedonia.This is the core of the problem. Do I have the right to call my self macedonian as well? Or this right will be spared only for those who consider themselves part of a so-called macedonian minority in Greece?

To Ismet: As I said before, *everyone* on earth and in the galaxy recognises the country as "RoM", sans one... It's this "one", however, with which the RoM is *now* negotiating the "name issue". Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Pando - 'Do I have the right to call my self macedonian as well?' Yes, absolutely without question. With all respect, the rest of your comment is an effort to rewrite history. I realise full well that many Greeks today deny flatly their support for Milosevic but to say, 'So it is only speculation that another pro-war policy against FYROM was seriously considered as an option,' is plainly not true. Go and read the Tarkas book I mentioned in my earlier comment and you will see quite how deep into the Greek state the war-fervour spread. Tarkas was a senior adviser at the Greek FM and was at these events first hand. Again, his account was confirmed by the Greek ministry. The sanctions-busting was an outrage and suffice it to say that I have serious reservations about trusting my security to a country that so blithey spits at common institutions. Given the 1990s it is laughable to claim that Greece respects international law. Again, at the time were you personally a Milosevic supporter or not? Certainly the Greek foreign minister Bakoyannis was involved in all this in her cabinet role at the time. The rest of your comment seems to want it both ways. Greece is either in NATO or it is not. It is just not acceptable to bust sanctions, pass on NATO secrets and so on whether or not there is a history. How would you react if things were different and Britain worked against NATO like Greece did? 'Traditional estimations' as you call them do not matter - you are either in an alliance or are not. Again with respect, your comment reinforces my feeling that somehow Greeks see themselves as an exception or special case. Just not so. You say, 'I think my right for self-determination is seriously violated because of the monopolization of the name macedonia.' I think you are a total hysteric. There is no monopolisation of the name 'Macedonia' except in the fetid, hot-house imagination of the Greek jingoist. Macedonians on the street and in government quite happily recognise that 'Macedonia' stretches from the Agean to the border of Serbia. Macedonians refer to 'Greek Macedonia.' There is no attempt to monopolise. For what it's worth I personally see no particular problem with Upper Macedonia and I am far from satisfied with the way that the Macedonian governments have approached this. But one country does not get to name another outside of convention and Greece is not a special case. Ringo - have you looked at some websites that cater for the Greek diaspora and what they have to say about Macedonia? I accept that there has to be questions asked about nationalism at a distance of 6000 miles but you are being one eyed. I certainly accept that some websites aimed at Britons abroad approach some issues in a way that I do not like.

Ismet said: 'Ringo, I'm interested to hear your take on how or why 124 countries have officially recognised Macedonia? (a further 2 pending recognitions)" My response to your comment Ismet is very simple: If you have such universal support then why are you still outside of NATO? The reality off courses, which the current Skopjian government has realised way too late, is that these 124 countries may have recognised you as 'Republic of Macedonia', but none of these countries were able to help your nation get inside NATO or in the future inside the EU. Amazingly though, there is one nation that can open those doors for you - Greece... Its GAME OVER for Gruevski and his government on the name issue!

Ellas - 'My response to your comment Ismet is very simple: If you have such universal support then why are you still outside of NATO?' Because of the shameless and hysterical nature of Greek idiot-jingoist pathology presumably. Quick thought for you, why did Greece not withdraw from NATO in the 1990s?

You said that "For what it's worth I personally see no particular problem with Upper Macedonia and I am far from satisfied with the way that the Macedonian governments have approached this." So, if this country is named Upper or Northern Macedonia you would think it would be a fair compromise. Right? Let us go one step further, and call its language Slavomacedonian to distinguish it from the language of the "Aegean" Macedonia, Greek. Therefore, when our neighbors are travelling abroad and are asked where they are from, they can proudly say from Upper Macedonia and we speak, Slavomacedonian, Albanian , Serbian etc. etc. However, as good as this may sound to any independent observer, it will not satisfy the ultra-nationalists on either side. The Slavomacedonians do not like the word Slav to be part of their name because it gets in the way of their "twisted view of history" and their claim to be the descendants of the ancient Macedonians. Also, the ultra-nationalists in Greece believe that only Greeks can be Macedonians disregarding the fact that this region belongs to more than one country. By using geographical and historically true cultural determinants to the name and language issue, we may be able to move forward. Once this is settled, then, we can talk about Civil war refugees, repatriation etc. For me, it is not important as to who gets to name the country but what is a fair compromise that will not humiliate either side.

As an outsider this is what i see. I'm an Englishman born in London. I met my wife who is from FYROM 7 years ago and we have 2 children. My best friend is Greek and is godfather to my youngest child. My Greek friend has been to FYROM for a holiday together and we all had a great time, he was treated with respect and is looking forward to going back there. My wifes town has many businesses owned by Greeks who are part of the community and like it there. Seems to me it really doesn't matter when it's on a personal level, it's only the politicians or extremists on both sides who make life difficult for the common man (or woman) Having spent time in both countries i see rich cultures with far more to connect you than divide. It's so easy to get caught up in unresolved history, and never truly allow your children to grow up in an area that has so much to offer without fear or prejudice. Time to move on and stop looking back. It really is the only solution.

With regards to the Claim of the same Ancient History by both the Greeks & the Republic of Macedonia, the Gene DNA is advanced world wide, they have genetic databases & the Greek & Republic of Macedonian DNA is completely different, Why do they not prove whose history it is, they have the remains of either Phillip II or his sons Philip III Arrhidaeus in Verginia In Greek Macedonia, why do they not obtain 2 teeth & a piece of bone from the remains & have a Historian verify that they are the true remains being tested & confirm if he was Greek or Macedonian by way of Gene DNA. They have done this with Evangelist Luke & as they found out he was not Greek. (Genetic characterization of the body attributed to the evangelist Luke) The Genetic DNA testing should be conducted independently by a third part so that there is no corruption of the data.

Valentin As a medical doctor I consider DNA researches to clarify historical disputes such as the macedonian question the most irresponsible, dangerous and irrelevant thing. Most population genetic studies are easily fabricated by private and state interests.Population genetic studies are totally different from those on individual level. By what indisputable evidence do you consider people from Greece and FYROMacedonia as totally different in genetic terms? The opposite is much probable